this post was submitted on 17 Dec 2024

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Fedigrow

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How Lemmy public modlog allows to call out toxic and troll users, and should we have a community about this? (self.fedigrow)

submitted 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) by Blaze to c/fedigrow@lemm.ee

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I noticed today an occurence of a user complaining about Lemmy being worse then Reddit. The modlogs shows how toxic they are. When this was pointed out, the user deletes their account

https://web.archive.org/web/20241217101003/https://sopuli.xyz/post/20276017?scrollToComments=true

Deleted account: https://kbin.melroy.org/u/Pyrin

This seems to address the question that comes up once in a while "a public modlog is only useful for mods" (https://feddit.org/post/4920887/3235141), while we can see from this example that it can also be useful for toxic users.

As you may know, !yepowertrippinbastards@lemmy.dbzer0.com is a community dedicated to calling out power tripping mods.

Should we consider having a similar community for toxic users?

There is already !fediverselore@lemmy.ca, but I feel like the "lore" is more about large-scale events (like the cats wave recently) than specific users events.

Edit: Updated the title, and put the emphasis on creating a community to call out toxic users rather than "dunking" on the users that was banned.

(page 2) 41 comments

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[–] DarkThoughts@fedia.io 2 points 5 days ago (1 children)

I complain about the same thing, actually, and get accused of the same thing. I don't know whether this was true for the person in this example, but the modlog severely lacks context, which is what I'm confronted with as I clash heavily with the extremists on this platform who constantly advocate for murder, mob rule, and genocide, or them simping for terrorist groups like Hamas.

Same thing happened on Reddit, just opposite spectrum, like them refusing to remove Nazi content, calls for genocide and violence against brown people & muslims. Lemmy has basically the same issue as Reddit, where power tripping mods are in full control of the narrative, and the modlog helps them because they can just scrub the evidence and then claim ridiculous removal or ban reasons. I got recently accused by another user for being a political troll like Linkerbaan (if you don't know, some Nazi shithead troll with the dumbest takes), even though mine and his reputation points (mbin) were literally polar opposites, since he was easily identifiable as a negative karma troll (something Reddit unfortunately made harder by capping their karma system at -100). All just because I have a firm principled stance against extremism. Their alleged proof was the modlog of my account, by directly comparing it to his. His account was older, but he also only had like 90 or so comments, while I'm at like 4700 and also tend to participate in politically loaded topics.

db0's community is laughable as well, because db0 himself is doing mod abuse and partially responsible for how my modlog looks like, since he's controlling so many communities (good old powermods, another issue imported from Reddit). He's accusing me of painting all leftist (which ironically would include myself) as terrorists or whatever. First example: I confronted him later where he tried to blame other mods, then other instance admins: https:// i.imgur.com/QREZXgL.png A while ago I got banned on various communities that db0 moderates, for the same alleged accusation / spin, just because I said that the same people who glorify the murder of that asshole CEO, who now call for more killing, are the same people who also suck Hamas dick. Maybe you don't like my choice of words for those people, but that does not make me a troll. And just because the majority on this platform seemingly seems to swim in this extremist direction, does not mean I have to join that mindset too, just to fit in.

TLDR: This platform lacks nuance, just like Reddit. Probably worse than Reddit.

[–] OpenStars@piefed.social 1 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (1 children)

But can't you see how you are hurting the cause that you are advocating for by using such language? I don't believe that you are a troll, yet you are using language that is troll-adjacent. I will give some examples.

This platform lacks nuance

Agreed.

, just like Reddit.

Less so I would argue, b/c the modlog does not "scrub the evidence" so much as it preserves it for those who want to see it. BTW being on Mbin you may not know, but a recent Lemmy update allowed people to click on the hamburger menu (3 ellipses) and see the entire modlog history for a particular comment - e.g. if it were removed, then unremoved, then removed again, etc. It's less difficult now than ever before to see EXACTLY what happened to a particular piece of content (again, on Lemmy, I doubt this works on Mbin).

Probably worse than Reddit.

This is hyperbole, emotional "feels like" hurt words, which you offered no actual evidence in support of, plus above I've just shown how it seems to many of us that the opposite is true? Yet you did not seem aware of those facts, so how are we to interpret your statements then - that Mbin is worse than Reddit, but that Lemmy can still be better? Note we can't speak to the entire "Fediverse" unless we also have experience with Mastodon, which I for one do not.

And there are so, SO MANY additional examples like that - e.g. I very much doubt that db0 literally "suck Hamas dick" (I mean even if he were to swing that way and thereby have the motive, the chances for that opportunity seem somewhat slim, on a global scale:-P).

You can do whatever you want. But so too can others? And yeah, many people aren't going to like your words. Maybe don't be so surprised then when they act on what they like/don't like in their own community, which they created and expend all of the effort to moderate? Instead, create your own, and then feel free to use whatever toxic words you you like inside of it. Although people can choose to defederate from it, so don't be surprised if they do - you do not get to tell others what to do.

Edit: lolz I misspelled hamberger:-P

[–] DarkThoughts@fedia.io 2 points 5 days ago (2 children)

But can't you see how you are hurting the cause that you are advocating for by using such language? I don't believe that you are a troll, yet you are using language that is troll-adjacent.

I'm not sure how that example makes me sound like a troll? Both platforms are very extremistic and safespace forming. Both platforms will get you downvoted for disagreeing with a highly polarized / extremist viewpoint. I can see how my language used can rub people the wrong way, but it's specifically targeted towards the people I'm addressing. I know especially Americans are very sensitive about swear words, but that's not something I feel like I have to cater towards. I'm not gonna censor bad words just so someone feels less riled up, while the meaning behind it does not even change in any way.

Less so I would argue, b/c the modlog does not "scrub the evidence" so much as it preserves it for those who want to see it.

But you can't. If a mod bans me from his communities, I just see their reasoning, which may or may not be bullshit. I don't see the context that sparked that reaction. And for removed comments, I can't see them anymore either, because they get scrubbed on my end too. On Reddit you were at least able to still read your own comments - at least for mod removals, admin removals were similarly frustrating because this also made appeals extremely hard (try to remember a 3 months old comment that lands you a temp ban or something). Here I can't even make an appeal, I just have to take it.

BTW being on Mbin you may not know, but a recent Lemmy update allowed people to click on the hamburger menu (3 ellipses) and see the entire modlog history for a particular comment

I don't know if that is just for registered users to see but I don't see any pancake menu on Lemmy comments if I for example visit this thread on lemm.ee, but maybe that instance isn't updated yet. I don't really follow Lemmy updates. I'd love it if the modlogs would properly link to the offending comments or whatever though.

This is hyperbole

Granted, I can't speak for the current state of Reddit, I left during the big protests so maybe the current conflict in Israel & Palestine had similar effects there... But I have never seen so many people simping for literal terrorist groups like I did here, not even in the Nazi infested subreddits like /r/europe I've seen so many calls for violence and genocide. People here constantly make excuses for what those groups do towards Jews in Israel, and when I call them out, I am suddenly allegedly making excuses for Israel - which I don't even do. I constantly see people justifying the rape murder and torture of those people on the festival, I see people justifying Hezbollah rockets targeting civilians, I see constantly people calling for executions of more CEOs since that asshole got shot, along with the glorification of the killer. If you don't see that, then you may just decided to stay out of topics like that, but even then you'd likely should have seen memes going in that direction, or the drama of .world moderating such cases. I blocked SO many communities, specifically news related ones, along with the mods there for their mod abuse, because they not just refuse to moderate content like this or disinformation, but then threaten me for reporting it - and despite the endlessly long blocklist, I still see it everywhere. Reddit at least had a lot of normie subs, but Lemmy lacks a lot of those communities or has them in a very inactive state.

I very much doubt that db0 literally "suck Hamas dick"

If he bans me for calling out people who do, then I can only assume that he's of the same mindset. I don't know how else he would come to willfully spinning my comments like that around.

Instead, create your own

Hell no. That seemed already insane on Reddit, let alone here.

[–] Blaze 2 points 5 days ago

I don’t know if that is just for registered users to see but I don’t see any pancake menu on Lemmy comments if I for example visit this thread on lemm.ee, but maybe that instance isn’t updated yet.

You indeed have to be logged in

[–] OpenStars@piefed.social 1 points 4 days ago

it's specifically targeted towards the people I'm addressing

(1) That is not your call to make; (2) when people voted for Trump, was that solely their personal choice, or something that affects us all?; (3) when other people read toxic comments, it makes them feel unwelcomed, and entices the more introverted people, and those less desiring of controversy, to lurk rather than engage in productive conversations. Like a shadow in a forest that chokes out growth of the grass beneath it - why would you want to act in such a manner? Note I am not talking about those you are responding to, but the others watching that you don't even think about at all.

You seem to expect others to treat you "fairly". Well then, treat them even BETTER than you expect of them! They will not always return the favor, but your conscience at least will be clear.

Mods "own" their communities. Make your own, and then you'll see how much hard work it is. Why go around making work harder for people who are trying to help? Please don't answer this btw, b/c you aren't there yet where I would accept any answer that you offer. Instead, just think about it?

If a mod bans me from his communities, I just see their reasoning, which may or may not be bullshit. I don't see the context that sparked that reaction.

Both Blaze and I have mentioned how that is not true - well, it probably is on Mbin (unless there's a way and it is simply that none of us here don't know it?), but on an instance running any semi-recent version of Lemmy it's quite easy to find out.

You are feeling frustrated - I get it. So what: that's no excuse to go around slinging insults at everyone left and right. Be better. Or expect to get banned - that's just what happens, sure as night follows day, bans follow insults hurled directly at the admins/mods, surely that's not too difficult for anyone to understand. Nobody "owes" you anything. Though I have tried to offer these explanations here.

Also, I did not click it but the screenshots can also take you to your account's entire moderation history, which would include a temporary ban having been lifted.

Here I can't even make an appeal, I just have to take it.

Yeah that one is fair - we really need a procedure to handle appeals or at least communications. A lot of your bans come from "DM abuse", which could mean anywhere up from you sending gore pics to the mods/admins or down to just sending them a bunch of requests that they are simply tired of receiving. A modmail shared between the entire mod team would be perfection! One day... one day it may come, but this software is still fairly early in its development.

I can't speak for the current state of Reddit, I left during the big protests so maybe the current conflict in Israel & Palestine had similar effects there

I can all but guarantee that, plus seeing the state of Reddit as we left it, I would (naively) guess that it would have FAR more restrictions on what you can or cannot say than here, currently. But if you want to do a proper comparison between Lemmy vs. Reddit, you'd have to go there and look to find out? Simply claiming that Lemmy is worse than Reddit is insufficient to prove your point - especially when you are using Mbin that is quite a bit behind in its development compared to Lemmy, which has been around for a lot longer and so has a more fully-fleshed out feature set.

I've seen so many calls for violence and genocide

Sigh... yeah.:-( I hear that so hard, and yes I've definitely seen it. But calling them names like "dumb baby" isn't going to help matters any. If use of that language offends you, maybe try blocking it, including that whole entire community? But if you call people names, then people will block YOU, and mods remove your comments and ban you from their instances when you inappropriately try to DM them to find out why (honestly I'm not sure what this means there - see aforementioned aspect of a missing modmail - that's again more up to them to decide).

If he bans me for calling out people who do, then I can only assume that he's of the same mindset

I've already responded to this: no there are many other reasons for him to remove your comment. Your comment is abusive.

[about creating your own community] Hell no.

Okay then. But you can only control yourself, not others, so you either play by "their" rules, or make your own space, or else I guess you can feel saddened by it all? But you CANNOT just abuse other people, and expect to get away with it. You will be blocked and banned, as you are seeing happening. If you are okay with that, then all is well, but in case you are not, I tried to explain some things here that might help.

[–] ogmios@sh.itjust.works 2 points 5 days ago

I've already got one mega-fan following my posts around this site. An entire community where they can network with others to promote my activities would be awesome!

[–] 1984@lemmy.today 1 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (1 children)

This gives me a fun idea, scrape the modlog for ridiculous moderation and post the results.

Unfortunately only certain people would find it funny, most of them outside of Lemmy.. :)

[–] Blaze 2 points 5 days ago

You mean like !yepowertrippinbastards@lemmy.dbzer0.com ?

[–] Corgana@startrek.website -1 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (2 children)

Calling out mods for what? Not allowing your brand of freeze peach? Personally I think Lemmy needs more strong moderators because right now most instance's "all" feeds are just another stale parade of "memes". There is a lot of junk filler, and very few unique communities that make the Lemmyverse something that stands apart from Reddit.

I would also encourage instance admins to de-federate instances that host your idea of a "community" purpose built to publicly "call out" users. It's toxic.

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