this post was submitted on 24 Jan 2024
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[–] specseaweed@lemmy.world 1 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

These people sound like exact copies of the people saying voting in 2000 didn't matter, and that turned out to be the most politically consequential of my lifetime. Gore was imperfect as they all are, but holy fuck did Dubya fuck up literally everything he touched.

Among many, many, many things, Dubya started forever wars killing untold hundreds of thousands of people. He accelerated oil and gas production, absolutely setting the Climate Change world on a pace for disaster. He seated Alito, unquestionably the biggest monster currently on the Supreme Court. And he passed a monster tax cut for the rich that set us on this path of unrestrained deficit spending.

And that's just the headlines. Remember when he tried to put his personal lawyer on the Supreme Court? lol

Gen X already tried this 25 years ago and it fucked the world up so badly that we need to be saved by the future generations. Imagine not learning that lesson and doing it again.

[–] ed_cock@feddit.de 0 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

What really gets my goat is how some people now act like George W Bush is this respectable elder statesman that only did his best and oh, how cute, he's friends with Michelle Obama. Like, sure, next to Trump he looks like a political savant, but come on, he still was a total piece of shit that did lasting damage.

[–] Oliofizodos@feddit.de 0 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

First of all, your system is broken. Second, what is a Palestinian American supposed to do? Biden is literally providing the ammunition to kill their families. Trump isn’t any better, but that doesn’t mean voting for another genocidal maniac is a viable option.

You asking Palestinian/Muslim Americans to simply look past that is a very self centered perspective. You say then people will be deported and thrown into camps. That’s what Palestinians were fleeing from in the first place. They fled before, they’ll do it again if they have to. They’re living in diaspora anyway. So do the millions of other Muslim Americans who are here because of Western geopolitics.

You on the other hand who try to bully them into voting for Biden because it serves your purpose, have nowhere to go. If you want progress for your country and you consider Biden only the lesser evil. Instead of bullying fellow Americans into serving your purpose, why don’t you focus on your common goal instead? Respect their opinion, support their cause.

Join their protests against Biden, pressurize him into stopping the genocide, pressurize the DNC into sending someone else as their presidential candidate.

[–] Wilzax@lemmy.world 0 points 9 months ago (1 children)

The only realistic options have the same result on foreign policy with Israel, so you're not voting to influence that. The president is not just one policy, it's their entire platform of policies that determines how the country runs for the next 4 years. It's always better to choose the lesser of two evils than to allow the greater evil to have a greater chance to win.

[–] Oliofizodos@feddit.de 0 points 9 months ago

Yeah that’s true. But the deal was always that Palestinian/Muslim voters accept that they are the victims of geopolitics and in return there’s at least some kind of support.

But with Biden giving Israel the opportunity to commit an outright genocide in front of the world, he has crossed a line. We have reached a point where a „both sides bad“ and „it’s complicated“ policy just doesn’t work anymore.

[–] TokenBoomer@lemmy.world 0 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

And what did Marx think about voting for the lesser evil:

Even where there is no prospect of achieving their election the workers must put up their own candidates to preserve their independence, to gauge their own strength and to bring their revolutionary position and party standpoint to public attention. They must not be led astray by the empty phrases of the democrats, who will maintain that the workers’ candidates will split the democratic party and offer the forces of reaction the chance of victory. All such talk means, in the final analysis, that the proletariat is to be swindled. The progress which the proletarian party will make by operating independently in this way is infinitely more important than the disadvantages resulting from the presence of a few reactionaries in the representative body.

Karl Marx and Frederick Engels Address of the Central Committee to the Communist League, London, March 1850

[–] Enkrod@feddit.de 0 points 9 months ago

Marx and Engels had proportional representation to work with instead of first past the post. This is exactly why the US needs proportional representation, at least for congress, to break the de-facto two party system.

[–] Octagon9561@lemmy.ml 0 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

Americans have some serious Stockholm syndrome if they believe voting for any of these candidates makes a meaningful difference when they are both war mongering fascists. The status quo can not be changed by voting but by anti-government protests forcing the current system to collapse.

Besides Roe ended under Biden, not Trump. There have also been more deportations under Biden than under Trump so this vote Biden or else blackmail isn't even based on facts. It's like choosing between Himmler and Hitler.

[–] Nobsi@feddit.de 0 points 9 months ago (2 children)

Both sides bad mhhhhhkay?
Get the fuck outta here, One side wants to uphold democracy and the other wants to bea adictatorship cult. And most bad things happening under biden are the result of 4 years of trump.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 0 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Both sides are bad, yes. The fascists are far worse, of course, but it's naive to think the DNC are some brave Democracy Defenders, when their sole interest is to uphold the rights and protections of Capital. Most of the bad things happening under Biden are actually because of Capitalism reaching an ever-later stage, Trump certainly made it worse but Biden isn't making it better.

Should leftists vote for Biden to prevent Trump? 100%, abstaining from voting or voting third party is a spoiler vote in America and would result in fascists winning. Should liberals pretend that Leftists are the problem because leftists are understandably upset that they don't have anyone to actually vote for, while liberals and fascists get to gleefully vote for their preferred candidates? Absolutely not.

[–] Nobsi@feddit.de 0 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Show me a functioning non capitalist society that is on the same or better level than the US, Germany, Finland, Spain, France.... etc. i'll wait.
Stop being delusional.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 0 points 9 months ago (1 children)

What "level?" Development? Quality of Life? Wealth? Wealth drives development, and development drives quality of life. If I took Cuba, or even EZLN, and compared it with, say, Somalia, the non-Capitalist countries win on all 3 accounts. You can cherry pick if you want, but ultimately development is a process and takes time. Development is a stage, if Cuba became Capitalist today it wouldn't be as developed as the US overnight, that's silly.

Secondly, you're assuming I want to replicate a currently existing country. That's false. I want the US, Germany, Finland, Spain, and France, along with all other countries, to shift to collective ownership of the Means of Production. I don't want to randomly reset a country to 0 progress and build up straight to Socialism, that's absurd.

The very premise of your question is false, as you're relying on a snapshot in history and not actually analyzing the mechanics of collective ownership. It's an utter non-argument.

[–] Nobsi@feddit.de 0 points 9 months ago (1 children)

LMAO youre a tankie. No wonder youre delusional.
Have fun in your dreams.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 0 points 9 months ago (1 children)

How exactly am I a tankie? The EZLN is a Libertarian Socialist collective, I explicitly mentioned it to provide multiple examples that only share the fact that they are leftist in structure. I'm in favor of Democratic ownership and operation of the Means of Production by and for the Workers, rather than having a bunch of petite dictators a la Capitalism.

Is the fact that you're a landlord what drives you to be so immediately reactionary to anyone proposing we share ownership collectively?

[–] Nobsi@feddit.de 0 points 9 months ago (1 children)

I want the US, Germany, Finland, Spain, and France, along with all other countries, to shift to collective ownership of the Means of Production

i cannot capitalize LMAO further but i would.
LEMAO
You are so far removed from reality i cant even

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 0 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Do you have a point? I think worker co-operatives are pretty cool, Socialist structures. Workers are happier and the co-ops are more stable than regular Capitalist businesses.

What's wrong with that? Is democratically controlling production worse than Capitalist ownership of Production? What's wrong with wanting more democracy in developed and underdeveloped nations alike?

Genuinely. Throw me a bone, I think we can possibly come to an understanding.

[–] Nobsi@feddit.de 0 points 9 months ago (2 children)

I won't waste my time discussing with someone who is this far removed from reality.
The fact that none of these systems ever worked is already proof.
Show me a commune that works.
If communism is so great then surely there must be loads of local communes that all work together? No?
There is no socialist communities that work? Mhhhh i wonder how that could be hmmmm how weird.

[–] Cataphract@lemmy.ml 0 points 9 months ago (1 children)

You don't think there are any successful communes or co-ops?

[–] Nobsi@feddit.de 0 points 9 months ago (1 children)

List them. Show me how many of them work.

[–] Cataphract@lemmy.ml 0 points 9 months ago (1 children)

They're literally all around you. A credit union is a cooperative, the Associated Press (AP) is a cooperative, there are a number of electric companies that are cooperatives which I've been a part of. Land 'o Lakes for gods sake is a cooperative! Even Texas has housing and brewery cooperatives! I don't know why you're being so combative, If you took 10 seconds to look it up you would know. Either you've been grossly misinformed by someone or your perceived notions need educated.

List of cooperatives (not even close to being a complete list)

Energy Cooperatives

Food Cooperatives

Land O'Lakes

Land O'Lakes was founded on July 8, 1921, in Saint Paul, Minnesota, by representatives from 320 cooperative creameries as the Minnesota Cooperative Creameries Association.

This isn't a new, fanciful, or dreamy thing. It's a very real system that benefits everyone at the company including CEO's.

“Workers in employee-owned firms tend to be more cooperative and interested in the firm’s performance, and display a greater willingness to work hard, which generally leads to reduced employee turnover, improved productivity, better pay, and increased job security.”

While cooperatives are well-known in many European countries, Americans may not realize that this model of organizing also has deep roots here. Cooperatives undergirded the early stages of U.S. capitalism, with communities establishing electrical cooperatives, insurance mutuals, and dairy cooperatives as alternatives to government bureaucracies and conventional firms alike. America’s early unions founded hundreds of industrial cooperatives to protect workers’ rights and share the gains of industry more equitably.

source

If you want to have a real conversation about co-ops I'm here for it. If you're just going to respond with a snarky comment and nothing to back it up but anecdotal observations then I will not waste anymore time continuing further.

[–] Nobsi@feddit.de 0 points 9 months ago (1 children)

I was specifically asking for communes and you show me coops that still have capitalist gain in mind. Delusional

[–] Cataphract@lemmy.ml 0 points 9 months ago (1 children)

You're either woefully uneducated with a bitter attitude or just a troll. Either way, your complete refusal to even perform a 10-second google search to confirm or refute your claims shows you're not willing to accept any new information outside of your completely-incorrect viewpoint. Have a good and lonely life so others can be spared from your ignorance.

For everyone else, successful and long-lasting communes do exist. There are a wide variety of "Alternative Lifestyle" or "Intentional Communities" out there. It basically boils down to, "what are your motivations and prospects for joining such a community?". From wiki "The multitude of intentional communities includes collective households, cohousing communities, coliving, ecovillages, monasteries, survivalist retreats, kibbutzim, hutterites, ashrams, and housing cooperatives."

With a 30-second search I located this page with over 946 communities signed up (many across the U.S.) that you can register with if you're interested. These types of communities have a wide-range of goals or how they operate, such as Living Energy Farm's technology driven mandate "We are an intentional community farm and sustainable technology research, development and education center. We serve as a viable demonstration that a fulfilling life is possible without the use of fossil fuel. Our mission is to serve as an example and actively promote lifestyles and technologies that are truly sustainable, and to make these sustainable technologies accessible to all persons regardless of their income or social position." All the way to the other side of the spectrum which the above commenter probably perceives all communes to be (Awake-In Heart Healing Center), "The driving force of our vision is to bring back unity, generosity, and community, as well as helping the next generations thrive using natural principle of wisdom." I personally prefer somewhere in the middle like the European Eco-village template. Just search "eco village community" on youtube and pick a video that looks interesting to you to start your journey.

If articles are more your style, he's an excerpt talking with a commune that's been around for over 40 years.

Would-be members used to contact Bergholt Hall, one of Britain’s longest standing farming communes, at the rate of 70 or so a year: 50-something empty nesters looking for companionship; 30-something couples in pursuit of an idyllic upbringing for their children; 20-somethings keen to erect a yurt on the hall’s rolling Suffolk pasture. Since the Covid lockdowns, however, Hodgson admits, it’s been “bonkers”. “We had 70 applications in April and May alone.”

It’s a pattern echoed across the UK, with communes reporting being inundated by new applicants of all ages, driven by the Extinction Rebellion movement and its focus on low-carbon living and, more recently, by the glimpse that lockdown has offered of simpler, less consumption-driven, lifestyles.

There are more than 400 such “intentional” communities across the UK. Many are cohousing set-ups, in which residents live in individual dwellings with a few common areas and domestic functions; others are based upon a lifestyle or worldview (spiritualism, gender non- binarism, veganism) and feature a variety of communal labour arrangements and facilities.

A surprising number are longstanding country communes, such as Bergholt Hall, founded in the heyday of the 1960s and 70s back-to-the-land and self-sufficiency movements. It was an era when an ideological generation of “diggers” (named after the 17th-century English communards) sought to challenge notions of the sanctity of the nuclear family and opt out of “the grab-game of straight society” (as hippy bible Oz magazine put it in a 1968 article on the first London digger commune).

source

If anyone wants to talk about cooperatives then feel free to contact me or reply to this message. It's an interesting topic and I believe a sustainable way to exist on this planet if instituted large scale. Want to work off the land and help the direct community? There's a place for you. Busy working and just wish to contribute financially while living in the community? There's a place for you. Want to start up a company that your passionate about? Imagine having a community with a plethora of talents to help you and that you can equitably share income with! You can form a cooperative business within a commune and bring in workers from outside the community to share in your prosperity.

The possibilities are endless, the outcome is fair and sustainable. With enough cohesion you can combine with other businesses to form a mega-cooperative like the Land O'Lakes example above. The only thing stopping you is individual greed, which we've seen how that's played out so far in our history.

[–] Nobsi@feddit.de 0 points 9 months ago

You linked to cults. Kinda cringe bro.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 0 points 9 months ago (1 children)

They do, though. I literally pointed out worker co-operatives. Motion Twin, a game studio, is a quick example off the top of my head, though there are many others.

Your point seems to be that democracy is bad if applied to labor, and that there are mystical factors that turn things evil if Workers share ownership, without any actual analysis.

Again, what do you mean by "works?" There are existing Socialist states, all with various problems, just like there are existing Capitalist states, all with various problems. There are many types of Socialist states, from Cuba to the EZLN, to even China, depending on who you're asking, or Rojava.

Do you have an actual criticism against workers sharing ownership of the factory, rather than having one person own the factory? Whats wrong with that?

[–] Nobsi@feddit.de 0 points 9 months ago

I am not talking about anything evil or how democracy is bad.
I am talking about communists being delusional.
Yall keep talking and yall keep proving it over and over again.
You don't understand shit and just keep repeating stuff that didnt even work 70 years ago.

[–] Octagon9561@lemmy.ml 0 points 9 months ago (1 children)

What democracy are you talking about? All I see is a war mongering oligarchy. The problem isn't with the president, it's with the US itself.

[–] Nobsi@feddit.de 0 points 9 months ago

I couldnt even dumb myself down enough to explain this to you. Grow a brain fascist