side note i like the use of calvin over that other guy
this post was submitted on 21 Jan 2024
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yeah fuck crowder
don't fuck him tho
not unless you want to be a victim of abuse i guess
Crowder's one of my favorite musicians... Oh wait, different Crowder.
Music Crowders's good. Who's this other Crowder?
The louder one.
Wdym? I legit don't know (I'm not exactly up-to-date with the current (presumably american) news)
Steven Crowder, the assshole from Louder with Crowder. If you don't know about him you're lucky.
That Covfefe got cold a long time ago.
Not a hot take at all. Asking someone to go from a GUI heavy operating system to a command line heavy one and be just as productive is lunacy. Like all major changes it is important to ween off the old thing.
My biggest hurdle with the switch has been permission related issues, and you can't deal with those cleanly with a UI, and every help thread under the sun throws out a bunch of command line commands giving a solution without explaining why those changes are needed. It may seem like Unix 101 to experienced Linux users, but it is really cryptic to newcomers coming from operating systems that are...cough more lenient with their permissions.
There is also a mentality that UIs are much more idiot proof than command line. UIs are written by people who actually know the OS so we can't accidentally delete our home folder because of a typo. It is a very legitimate concern.
Yesterday morning i installed Mint xfce on an old laptop.
I wanted to install synaptics drivers for the touchpad because i use the trackball as mouse but need the touchpad for clicking. Something that isnt configureable in the default driver.
When i copied an example config file and added my line, i rebooted the computer.
The GUI broke because in the example config file, there were "..." To indicate writing further options, but xorg couldnt interpret or ignore it, so i had to figure out how to edit textfiles in the command line.
No fun times, and definetely a risk for new users.
This story is literally every experienced Linux users first horror story.
I still remember the first time I broke my xorg config on my shiny new slackware 10 install in early 2005.
I agree, BUT that is only because the average windows user never even had to bother with permission. I find permissions on Linux A LOT easier to handle than on Windows. Basically the way Windows does permissions is garbage, so they made it so that people can just do whatever so they won't complain about permissions. That is... one way of doing things, I guess.
Not really, the vaaaast majority of PC users don't need the linux commandline.
i love K⭐D⭐E
It's mostly true. Someone coming from windows may struggle with gnome, while cinnamon is pretty easy to them. If it comes down to the decision between Gentoo and Linux Mint this, of course, isn't true anymore, since Gentoo is way to complex for a beginner to understand.
Tl;dr: This is only true if you apply this to different distros with the same complexity(e.g. Pop_OS! or Linux Mint).
On the other hand, for someone just learning to use computer (ie. a child), GNOME in it's simplicity would be just great.
I feel like we've all been accustomed to the dumpster fire that is Windows, and selecting a DE that resembles it. GNOME feels and looks more like Android or iOS that have proven to be easy to learn from ground up and it still manages to offer a great desktop experience even if limited in customization many more advanced users want.
That's absolutely true. Windows managed to burn into our minds, that we have to look up how to install every single software.
Great take. But you know the real sneaky one that trips you up? File system.
I wouldn't call myself a beginner, but every time I install a Linux system seriously I see those filesystem choices and have to dig through volumes of turbo-nerd debates on super fine intricacies between them, usually debating their merits in super high-risk critical contexts.
I still don't come away with knowing which one will be best for me long-term in a practical sense.
As well as tons of "It ruined my whole system" or "Wrote my SSD to death" FUD that is usually outdated but nevertheless persists.
Honestly nowadays I just happily throw BTRFS on there because it's included on the install and allows snapshots and rollbacks. EZPZ.
For everything else, EXT4, and for OS-shared storage, NTFS.
But it took AGES to arrive to this conclusion. Beginners will have their heads spun at this choice, guaranteed. It's frustrating.
If I read lsblk correctly, I am using ext4 for my whole drive. I have used linux for some years now, but I never bothered to learn more than "next next next done" when installing my OS.
Does BTRFS popOS allow BTRFS? Should I bother for a daily driver?
In practice BTRFS is a bit faster and on a Distro like Fedora or Opensuse they already integrate it to do system backups while running (copy on write).
In practice it just works and you dont use all the fancy possibilities, because a majority of the Linux world still sticks with ext4 for whatever reason, so Filemanagers and backup tools wouldnt reach everyone.
Its a perfect example of Linux slowing down itself by desperately refusing to change
- Xorg
- old Desktops
- old software, system packages, damn appimages
- no automatic updates
- ext4 instead of something modern
Ext4 is from 2008. BTRFS is even older from 2007, but was only declared stable in 2013. More innovation, more testing time, more "dont use it yet, it is unstable". Ext4 probably never was as they didnt try that much.
Ext4 is the safe bet for a beginner. The real question is with or without LVM. Generally I would say with but that abstraction layer between the filesystem and disk can really be confusing if you've never dealt with it before. A total beginner should probably go ext4 without LVM and then play around in a VM with the various options to become informed enough to do something less vanilla.
Can you explain LVM in practice to me? I used ext4 and now Fedora Kinoite with BTRFS, the filsystem never makes any problems and some fancy features just work.
In practice, you would split a disk up to keep /home separate from/ and probably other parts of the filesystem too like /var/log.. this has long been an accepted practice to keep a full disk from bringing something production offline completely and/or complicating the recovery process. Now, you could use partitions but once those are set, it's hard to rearrange them without dumping all the data and restoring it under the new tables. LVM stands for Logical Volume Manager and puts an abstraction layer between the filesystems and the partitions (or whole disk if you are into that). This means you can add Disks arbitrarily in the future and add parts of those disks to the filesystems as required. This can really minimize or even eliminate downtime when you have a filesystem getting filled up and there's nothing you can easily remove (like a database).
It's good to know but with the proliferation of cloud and virtual disks it's just easier on those systems to leave off LVM and just keep the filesystems on their own virtual disks and grow the disk as required. It is invaluable when running important production systems on bare metal servers even today.
Hope this helps.
Thanks! So BTRFS does something similar with volumes, but baked in.
Yes, I listened to a podcast about that recently. Linux was far with XFS or something, but then Apple came, improved their HFS and actually made tools for it and it got better.
BTRFS is just as established as etx4, just not as damn old. It also just works, and it has advanced features that are crucial for backups. But I have no idea how to use btrbk and there is no GUI so nobody uses that.
But as a filesystem that just works like ext4, plus the automatically configured snapshots in both regular and atomic Fedora systems and OpenSuse, BTRFS is awesome.
Only outdated Distros that fear change stick with ext4, at least thats my opinion.
This isn't a bad take. DE is what is going to keep people from running back to windows right away, mostly. I do think it is better for people coming into Linux not to try to emulate the Windows experience. It is easier to learn when you accept it is going to be different from the start.
Its easier to learn if your muscle memory is still similar
- taskbar with apps, aligned to the left
- nearly no workspaces, everything through clicking
- normal Window decorations
- normal start& app menu
- filemanager with features
- firefox, thunderbird, libreoffice, inkscape, xnviewmp, freefilesync, kate, krita, ... all the cross-platform software you can learn before switching
I dont agree at all. I switched from KDE which is basically just the way better Windows 10. Windows 11 looks nice but is incredibly bloated, Windows is rock stable though which I admire. KDE is the exact opposite poorly.
But at the beginning the mix of familiarity and "wow a filemanager with tabs is so cool" made me stay with KDE immediately.
wait you switched from kde to windows?
No
Just hopped back over to linux mint again after years of making due with Windows
- Went with cinnamon cuz pretty.
- switched to CobiWindowList so I could see all windows on either of my monitor menu bars.
- switched to CinnVIIStarkMenu for a more familiar menu system.
Not much change, I can lean on the habits I've gotten from windows, and now my switch is pretty much unnoticeable to me.
Funny enough, Lutris has made it alot easier for me to access games I usually would just have downloaded, like my itch.io library. Proton has tackled all my other games fine. Hell, I even got Tarkov running smoothly, even though you can only do offline raids on Linux ATM.
Yeah... but if the packagers dont test it, or ship "stable" KDE Plasma 5.27 which will simply not get most bugfixes (Debian, MX Linux and many more will have these issues for 4 years!) its actually important what Distro you choose.
It is not if
- your Desktop relies on Xorg garbage which is "stable" and will not evolve
- your Desktop is minimal and Distros orient their schedule on it (GNOME)
This doesnt apply to
- KDE
- Cosmic
- Hyprland, Sway, Wayfire
- LXQt getting Wayland support probably
New Linux Users don't even know the difference.
Yeah hi that's me - I just use pop_os and everything works so I just roll with it
PopOS is great! I have used a few other (but never strayed far from APT), and I also did some light reading when doing my final decision . PopOS was the best fit for and easy-to-use OS without Snaps. Linux is great and all with how much control you have, but I want as little maintenance as possible for my daily driver.
For windows users that go to Linux I always recommend KDE as it looks like windows and it's easy for them to understand and use it!
Start recommending Cinnamon then, it's the best DE when switching from Windows.
Whats better in cinnamon in your opinion?
It's really similar to Windows in how you use it. Switching between Windows 11 and Cinnamon is as seamless as it can be.
There's almost no configuration or anything necessary, you just install it and it's great.
#You are perfectly right.
All major distributions offer all major Environments. I currently use either Debian or Ubuntu and usually install by booting the Netinstall.iso right from the official Servers which installs just the base system without any GUI at all. Then I use tasksel to select the environment. Ok, not every Environment is part of Tasksel but often it is just adding another Repository and running another apt install operation.
And yes, on my experimental computer I often install a dozen environments just because I can. Selectable at Login-Screen.
But now somethings VERY important from someone with 35 years of POSIX experience:
If you are a newby FOR GODS SAKE USE UBUNTU.
And if you are a pro... Ubuntu still is a very good option. Only if your have VERY GOOD REASONS which you COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND, only then use something else. Which is Debian for me.
I've had way more issues with Ubuntu than with Fedora.
Like after multiple updates I was stuck at some initramfs prompt
I'm a newbie, used a derivative of Ubuntu (xubuntu) since my computer is slow and old as fuck, it ended up somehow breaking my pc into only booting the drive with the Linux install on it and refuse to boot anything else not even live USBs (putting back in my windows drive just shows "success Ubuntu" in the top left corner)
If you think it's bios related please tell me, because I tried to mess with every damn setting related to this (I didn't try resetting the CMOS but I doubt it will do anything)
If anything it probably made me hate Ubuntu based distros in general (couldn't try anything else because the pc is fucked)
Hard to tell from the info you provided. It might be a mixup between legacy MBR and UEFI boot. Try enabling legacy boot in UEFI and make sure the boot order is correct, if your PC is really that old it might just be that your Windows install is still booting from the MBR.
I'll try that, it's actually the opposite, it has an uefi switch in the bios since it's so old it probably was the standard to use legacy boot, guessing by the CPU (core 2 duo, idk what model though) it's probably a 2007/08 prebuilt (by the weird PSU)
It would make sense that it would be a problem with windows if it didn't have the uefi setting on, but it still doesn't explain the "Ubuntu success" message I got instead (and that was the case when the Linux drive was completely disconnected )
Will reply after I try it out, if it doesn't work I'll try the CMOS instead, if that doesn't work either then I guess I fucked up my computer beyond repair
guess I fucked up my computer beyond repair
Unlikely, only misconfigured. The "Ubuntu success" message might show because your PC tries to boot from a GPT partition on a different disk or you have inadvertently overwritten the Windows bootloader. Booting from a live USB should work but it might take a couple of tries depending on what settings you have changed in the UEFI; also check if your flashdrive is working properly. Apps like the Fedora Media Writer or Rufus can check if the image is not corrupted after writing it to the drive.
I feel like the window manager is important, but for newbies I also consider the package manager and overall installation process to be very important.
I've had pretty distros that are basically busted after a package fails to install or video drivers are mucked with. An advanced user could fix most of these issues, but this is usually where a new user may go running back to their previous OS.
A good computing experience for me is all my hardware working with minimal fuss and all the software I expect to be available being a few terminal commands away (e.g. steam, developer tools, etc.)
I've had pretty distros that are basically busted after a package fails to install or video drivers are mucked with.
Ubuntu?