this post was submitted on 27 Jul 2024
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[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 69 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (10 children)

Genuinely, though. You describe democratic worker councils, large public programs, criticize Capitalism, even point out Imperialism, and everyone agrees with you and what you want, as long as you don't call yourself a Marxist.

I see this a ton on Lemmy, if I describe what I want and how I want to get there, very few people openly disagree unless I add that this is Marxism. So, I've stopped trying to hide that these ideas are Marxist and instead focus on correcting misconceptions about Marxism, like thinking Communism would have no government because Marx used the word "stateless" when describing it, not realizing he meant things like Private Property Rights and other statist means of upholding Capitalism. Marx wasn't an Anarchist nor did he want Anarchism.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 34 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Indeed, as soon as you mention Marxism then the whole conversation becomes about that. Simply discussing the concepts with people without using trigger words tends to be a lot more productive. Ultimately, it doesn't matter what people want to call it, as long as they can understand what course of action is desirable.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 17 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I do think it's useful to dispel the veil, though. People simply agreeing with concepts doesn't mean they will pursue action, it's important that people actually understand Marxism, at least in my opinion. Agitprop is good.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 10 points 4 months ago

For sure, I agree that chipping away at the propaganda has its own value, hence the meme. :)

[–] candyman337@sh.itjust.works 4 points 4 months ago (2 children)

People conflate Marxism with extreme left beliefs, most people don't even actually know what Marxism is

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 6 points 4 months ago (2 children)

Would you care to elaborate on what aspects of these beliefs you find to be extreme. Is it the idea that workers should own the fruits of their labor, or perhaps the idea that the purpose of work should be for common benefit?

[–] candyman337@sh.itjust.works 3 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I'm not saying I find them extreme, I'm saying they're not extreme but people hear the word and immediately think far left extremism

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[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I mean, Marxism is extreme left belief.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 9 points 4 months ago (1 children)

We shouldn't fall into a trap of defining what's extreme as a deviation from the mainstream liberal bias in the west. In my view the idea that a minority of people should own the means of production and dictate the economic reality for the working majority is what's extreme. It is true, that Marxists advocate for extreme measures for overthrowing an extreme system though.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 4 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I generally agree, however whether something is reasonable or just has little to do with deviation from the norm. It's linguistic gymnastics, really. Marxism is extreme in the sense that it is a firmly Leftist position in a world dominated by Capital, but is perfectly reasonable at the same time.

I dunno, more of a monologue than a response, but I hope it cleared up my intent.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 6 points 4 months ago

For sure, I do think this is worth pushing back on though. If we agree that the world capitalism built is itself extreme then, a firmly Leftist ideology is perhaps something we should be striving for to get away from the state we currently find ourselves in.

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[–] SnotFlickerman@lemmy.blahaj.zone 38 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Lots of people promote eugenics until you point out that they're promoting eugenics.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 22 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Thanks for providing an example of an opposite.

[–] polonius-rex@kbin.run 4 points 4 months ago (1 children)

how is that an opposite?

an opposite would be something everybody thinks is a bad idea until you name it

unless you're saying people disagree with the concepts and goals of eugenics until you say "but that's just eugenics" at which point they're fully on board?

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 13 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Most people think that Eugenics are a bad idea even if you don't name it, which is the opposite of people actually agreeing with the ideas behind Marxism without knowing its Marxism.

[–] polonius-rex@kbin.run 6 points 4 months ago (1 children)

but that's not what the comment said?

Lots of people promote eugenics

people sometimes end up accidentally talking themselves into eugenics and promoting eugenics before somebody points out that they're talking about eugenics

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 11 points 4 months ago (1 children)

But it is what the comment said. It's saying that people promote eugenics without realizing it. They do so by talking about the mechanics of eugenics without naming them.

[–] polonius-rex@kbin.run 3 points 4 months ago (1 children)

i'm baffled as to what's going on here

  • if you describe the mechanics of eugenics, people like the idea
  • if you label the mechanics of eugenics as eugenics, people do not like the idea

versus

  • if you describe the mechanics of marxism, people like the idea
  • if you label the mechanics of marxism as marxism, people do not like the idea
[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 7 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Your confusion comes from the fact that you assume most people like the mechanics of eugenics. If that's the sort of crowd you hang out with, then you may be associating with fascists.

[–] polonius-rex@kbin.run 4 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

but that's literally what the comment's saying? and you're saying "that's an example of the opposite?

e.g., there's a pretty good argument that pre-natal screening is a form of eugenics

if you describe the mechanics of pre-natal screening to somebody, i suspect most would be in support of that, but wouldn't be if you described it using the term "eugenics"

like, if you were to notice that completing tertiary education makes it more difficult for people to have children, and you decided to create some form of government aid to offset that, then oopsie daisy you just did a eugenics, but you could absolutely package that idea in a way that most people would instinctively go "yeah that sounds okay"

also to preempt pls nobody do the intellectually dishonest thing of pretending me following this line of argument means im in love with eugenics and am here to argue for more eugenics or that i just dont think eugenics is such a bad thing after all thnk u

[–] Nachorella@lemmy.sdf.org 7 points 4 months ago (2 children)

This is all just semantics and how the word 'opposite' can be applied in different ways. I wouldn't spend too much time on this.

[–] polonius-rex@kbin.run 2 points 4 months ago (3 children)

if you want to use the sentiment expressed in this post as an argument for marxism being good, which seems pretty transparent in this case, then that same sentiment being used to justify eugenics isn't a good thing for said argument

i'm not that concerned with the precise definition of "opposite", but i am concerned with whether or not the post's logic is sound

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 6 points 4 months ago (35 children)

Except that doesn't follow logically, but it's pretty clear that you're determined to work hard not to understand that.

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[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 4 points 4 months ago (11 children)

i'm not that concerned with the precise definition of "opposite", but i am concerned with whether or not the post's logic is sound

The problem is that your argument relies on the idea that "most people support eugenics until you say what it actually is," which is false in my experience while the post is correct.

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[–] umbrella@lemmy.ml 32 points 4 months ago (2 children)

this one drives me up walls omg.

how did they manage to demonize something thats so common sense.

[–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 26 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Pervasive cradle-to-grave anti-communist indoctrination programming, affecting nearly every western institution from media, education, law, political structures, etc.

[–] umbrella@lemmy.ml 7 points 4 months ago

whoops, marxism again

[–] refurbishedrefurbisher@lemmy.sdf.org 10 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

Propaganda is a powerful drug

[–] curiousaur@reddthat.com 8 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Socialism and communism would also have been accepted.

I usually hate your biased posts, but this is fire.

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