this post was submitted on 18 Aug 2023
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I am looking to buy a 3D printer for my son (and for myself too). We want to print, not tinker, so it should be something that gives great results right from the start.

Can you guide me to a sensible choice?

My first choice would have to be the Prusa MK3S Plus but it is outside the price range I am shopping for, except if I buy used -- would that be bad to do?

Realistic choices:

  • €380 used Prusa MK3S+, with 10 days printing time
  • €400 new Prusa Mini+
  • €250 new Ender 3 V2 Neo

Criteria:

  • High quality, no hassle. I want to print, not tinker.
  • Preferably (semi)assembled.
  • Auto bed leveling.
  • Auto error detection (filament, power, etc.?).
  • Budget up to 600 EUR/USD including extras, excluding filament.
  • Speed is not important.
  • Size is not important.
  • Must not be cloud-based.

Questions:

  • Surface?! Smooth, os satin, or textured? (Why) Should I have more than one kind?
  • (Why) Do I need an enclosure?
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[–] squaresinger@feddit.de 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Some notes:

Auto bed leveling is completely overrated. On a decently calibrated printer on a decently flat surface with decent spring tension you need to level the bed maybe once every few months. Auto bed level can also only correct small misalignments and it does so by skewing the one surface of the print. It's at best a small gadget to make the first layer overly perfect, and it's totally not necessary.

Powerloss recovery can be enabled on every printer by using (or compiling) the firmware with that setting enabled or by using an external print server like octoprint or repetier server. But: if enabled in firmware (not on an external print server) it causes bad print artifacts and wears down the SD card rather quickly. I have had a single time in 6 years of printing where I accidentally turned off the power mid-print and not a single time where I had powerloss due to things outside of my own stupidity. It's not a feature that I'd place any value on, unless you live somewhere where power outages are very frequent. Also, if you recover after a power loss and the hotend has cooled, it needs to be heated up in-place to basically melt the hotend free from the print. You will have a massive gash at that point.

Filament runout sensor is a nice gimmick, but again only important in special cases, namely you intend to print really huge parts that take multiple rolls to finish. Otherwise you'll just use the last bit of filament to print small things.

Size: I'd recommend you a bed that's 220x220 to 240x240 as this is the standard size. This means, you will be able to print almost anything you find online without issues. Larger only matters if you have specific use cases in mind. Prints that huge will take very long to print though (longer than a week), so you might not want print anything larger than a standard board anyway.

Without enclosure you can easily print PLA, PETG, TPU/TPE and filaments based on these materials. You need an enclosure if you want to print ABS or Nylon or other specialized materials. An enclosure helps to keep the air warmer and draft-less to avoid warping for filaments that tend to warp. Also it allows you to use air filtration to avoid the toxic fumes that ABS or Nylon tend to create during printing.

Surfaces are a solved problem by now. They will all work fine. The only difference is cosmetic. I personally would go with a textured surface since all the other sides of a 3D print are slightly rough and it looks a little dumb if one side is super smooth.

One thing to really watch out for: Before your first print (and if your prints stop sticking) wipe it thoroughly with a cloth rag soaked in isopropyl alcohol (IPA). This is a step that you really shouldn't skip, otherwise your prints won't stick to the surface.

Used printers are a massive gamble. There are many things that can be subtilely broken or damaged that you will not notice if you don't know exactly what you are looking for. It will just print really badly and you'll never figure out why without the propper knowledge. If you don't want to tinker a lot, don't get a used printer.

Both the Mini+ and the Ender 3v2 Neo are really good printers. The Ender 3v2 Neo will get you a bit more for your money, but the Mini+ is really cute and comes with free Haribo.

[–] IMALlama@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Largely agree, but two small counter points.

Active bed (or gantry) leveling, which actually squares the bed relative to the extruder, is very nice. I'm wrapping up a Voron 2.4 build and this was one of the features that motivated me to go this route. Sure it wasn't the only one, but I was so tired of my Wanhao I3 clone maintaining bed level as you said then radically loosing it because one of the two z steppers randomly decided to misstep.

I haven't built a filament runout sensor into my Voron, but probably will fairly soon. I tend to print larger prints and really disliked the constant game of "I wonder if I'll have enough filament" as I got to the bottom of a spool.

[–] squaresinger@feddit.de 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Yeah, these are sure nice quality of life things, but also not super high priority for a beginner.

Regarding the active bed levelling, there are a few other options to get the same effect. First, if you have any of the TMC drivers with stall guard (and it setup correctly), random missteps just don't happen. That's maybe the best way to go since it fixes the issue at the source and prevents it from happening during the print.

A second option is to tie your Z axies together with a belt. That way they all do the same, and you can just replace all these motors with a single big one.

Or you go the creality route and just use a single Z axis, but that requires a really stable gantry/bed, depending on what hangs off your z axis.

Also, skipped steps (especially on Z) aren't really a normal thing and point either to a mechanical issue (check bearings, belts, pully screws and obstacles), too weak motors (rare if you are using stock motors) or too little stepper motor current. Especially the last point. Turn the current up a little and see if that resolves skipped steps.

I haven't had a single skipped step on my current printer, which I have had since 1.5 years. Did a motor current tuning when I got it (necessary because I swapped the mainboard) and that's it.

[–] rambos@lemm.ee 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The problem with dual Z is when you turn off the printer, motors lose power and can missalign. You can connect motors with belts or just print some brake-like part that makes enough friction to stop motors from moving under weight of printer itself. Idealy you will have 1 motor per axis

[–] squaresinger@feddit.de 0 points 1 year ago

I had a dual Z printer before (Tronxy X8), so I know the issue.

I already mentioned tying the motors together with belts.

But if you want to not do any modifications, you can also move the print head off the bed, disable software endstops and move the Z axis down until both motors start to skip. That sounds bad but doesn't hurt the mechanics or engines at all, they are built with skips in mind.

That also aligns both Z axies.

[–] PlutoniumAcid@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

nice quality of life things, but also not super high priority for a beginner.

I disagree on the "beginner" part. Yes, I am a beginner, but that does not mean I want an entry level device, nor that I want to replace this device soon.

I want one solid machine that I will be content with for years. So any QoL details would definitely be useful, even or especially to a beginner.

[–] squaresinger@feddit.de 0 points 1 year ago

More systems means more that can go wrong and more difficult trouble shooting. No matter what printer you get, stuff needs to be tuned, stuff needs to be maintained and stuff breaks.

Getting the biggest best do-it-all device with all the bells and whistles (like a fully speced Voron) means not only that you spend a massive amount of money for a machine that does the same thing just a bit faster, but also that you have tons of things you need to watch out for.

Auto bedlevel, for example, is by far not a fire-and-forget solution.

Upgrades are also a thing. Once you get into printing and understand what it's all about you will learn what you want and need. This allows you to upgrade the machine and make it better. Especially the Ender 3 series is built with upgradability in mind. They have a lot of drop-in upgrades that are as simple to integrate as the (very simple) initial setup of the machine was.

If you buy your first car you also don't start out with an 800 PS super car or a semitrailer.

[–] rikudou@lemmings.world 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Saying all surfaces are equal is wrong. Using PEI sheet with PETG or TPU (and no glue) is a nice way to destroy it.

[–] RobotToaster@infosec.pub 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Same with glass, I ruined a few with PETG.

[–] squaresinger@feddit.de 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Why would you use a glass bed in 2023?

[–] RobotToaster@infosec.pub 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It's very flat, it works well with PLA, and it's what my ultimaker 2 came with.

[–] squaresinger@feddit.de 0 points 1 year ago

For a 10 year old machine that makes sense. But honestly, get your self a buildtak clone surface and stick it onto your glass board.

You won't be going back to the glass, I promise you.

Costs maybe €10, takes 2 minutes to install and you won't ever have to mess with glue stick, hairspray or any other surface treatment.

[–] rambos@lemm.ee 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Clean glass is best for pla imo. Also its flat. You need flat bed to avoid auto bed leveling and tooling plates are expensive. I know most peeps here disagree with me hehe

[–] squaresinger@feddit.de 0 points 1 year ago

My stock Ender 5 print plate is super flat and I don't need any auto bed leveling.

The print plate of my Tronxy X8, which I had before, was also super flat.

With spring steel PC, I need no surface treatment before printing PLA, PETG or TPU. It sticks perfectly every time and it comes off easily after cooling down.

No glue strick, hairspray, tape or other stuff that belongs in the 2010s needed.

[–] RohanWillAnswer@discuss.tchncs.de 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

The Prusa is what you want; it works straight out of the box and requires basically no tinkering. It’s just not at the price point you’re looking for. Given that, I would go with the Ender 3 v2. It’s a great printer, but you do have to assemble it first. It’s easy enough to do, mine had good instructions with it.

For a print surface, I live in an extremely dry climate and had a hell of a time getting anything to stick to the bed until I switched to a PEI sheet. It’s a textured, magnetic, metal sheet coated in PEI. It’s nice because it magnetically sticks to the printer and you can peel it off and flex it to pop off your prints. That single issue was pretty much the only issue I’ve had with my Ender 3 v2. Very little tinkering. It’s a great printer at a great price point. But you do have to put it together first.

I’ve thought about getting a BLtouch or something similar, but I just don’t have to really level the bed very often. The only times I do re-level it are when I occasionally have to pick up and move my printer.

I also have never used an enclosure, but I only print with PLA. As others have mentioned, there are other materials you can print with that create toxic fumes that you would want to vent outside. In that case, you would enclose it. They could also reduce noise, but that’s never been an issue for me.

I would also recommend sticking to PLA filament at first because it’s easy to print with and sticking to one material means you don’t have to change any print settings.

tl;dr The Ender is a great choice, unless you want to increase your budget and buy a Prusa.

[–] squaresinger@feddit.de 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Have you tried wiping your old build plate (guessing it's the standard ender one) with isopropyl alcohol? That's a must before first use and every once in a while if the bed gets too greasy and dirty.

[–] RohanWillAnswer@discuss.tchncs.de 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yeah, I appreciate the suggestion, but I’ve tried every trick in the book and turned in all the settings. I had a pretty extensive thread on Reddit where people were trying to help me figure it out. In the end I just switched to a PEI plate and it instantly solved all my adhesion problems. Which is fine because I like the texture it puts on my builds anyway.

[–] squaresinger@feddit.de 0 points 1 year ago

Just curious, did you try the isopropyl alcohol trick?

Yeah, a PEI plate is totally fine as well.