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Poor indie studio Epic games couldn't possible afford to support Linux, they only make about 5.6 billion a year and have a mere ~3000 employees, leave the little guy alone!
this post was submitted on 13 Dec 2023
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I think, people here look at it from the wrong side.
The code changes required for Linux support aren't the issue.
But if they support Linux, they have to support Linux. This is not some student's first indie game, but instead a massive game with up to 290 million monthly active users. That's 3.7% of the whole world's population! (And it's also more than the number of total Linux users.)
So supporting Linux means they need to test on at least all currently maintained versions of maybe the top 20 or so distros on all sorts of hardware configurations. That would increase their testing costs by around a factor of 20.
They also need to support customers if they have problems. Considering the variability of Linux configurations, chances are high that this comparatively small segment of players will consume an aproportional amount of difficult support requests.
And lastly, if the Linux version of the game has some serious bugs on some setup, it might likely be that all these Linux users think the game is shit and start talking badly about it.
So it's just a simple cost calculation: Does Linux support increase or decrease the total profit?
And if the variables change, the calculation changes with it. Exactly as Sweeny said in his post. People like Sweeny don't care about ideals or about which OS they prefer. They only care about money.
And the revelation that a CEO likes money and dislikes risk isn't exactly hard to figure out.
I'm not saying that it's good, but top capitalists tend to be capitalists.
And in the end, I'm pretty sure someone who has all the business figures and frequently has to defend those in front of the shareholders probably knows much better what makes business sense than any of us. Someone like him goes where the money flows.
You don't have to support all distros anymore. Just take whatever windows build and test it with Proton.
Proton with what? Stable or experimental? DXVK or Wine3D? X11 or Wayland? Nvidia closed source or open source?
That's just what I came up with. There are probably a few more of these questions. Even Proton alone is not an easy target.
Especially if you want some low-level anticheat. And you know, if they have one platform that is easier to cheat, cheaters will all use that platform.
I don't know about you, but playing with tons of cheaters doesn't seem like a lot of fun to me.
Pick any Proton release you like. Support X11, Wayland will then probably work anyway unless people have nvidia gpus. Support DXVK and force people to use it.
If you support one way to run Proton you're already most of the way there. Besides that majority of games just work fine without any work whatsoever.
Seems like you didn't read my first comment that you replied to before.
But still, your view is totally fine for a little indie studio, but that doesn't work for a game with >200 mio players.
I'm going to do a hard disagree here - they don't have to support Linux, just add compatibility in terms of anti-cheat for Linux. Proton is likely good enough to run the game itself but the anti-cheat sees Linux and just craps itself.
They don't even have to provide support - League of Legends runs on Linux if you install the game using community scripts and custom proton, and while the client runs poorly nobody spams the Riot Games support about how the "Linux version" client doesn't work the well because people understand that it's a community effort. Riot themselves have only made a statement saying how they'll try not to break the game for Linux users, and that's pretty much it.
League of Legends is a massively popular game as well, yet Riot barely has to do anything to maintain it on Linux, let community fix issues that come up, let community provide support as it's their tools.
And while I do understand that porting an anti-cheat to be more friendly to another operating system isn't an easy task (such as for Rust, where they tried to make the anti-cheat compatible with Linux but it introduced other issues so it got shelved), I think you're vastly overstating the amount of areas a company has to cover for a game to be playable on Linux.
There's a difference though.
If the game doesn't work for (some or all) Linux users, that's not a big problem from Epic's POV. They'll lose a couple users that wouldn't have been able to play the game without Linux support anyway.
But if the Anticheat faills on Linux, that is a completely different story. Then cheaters would all dual boot over to Linux to cheat all they want. That's now a problem for the whole game's user base and consequently for the publisher as well.
Something as low-level as an Anticheat would have to be rewritten almost from scratch to work on Linux and this one really needs to be tested with every possible permutation of installed relevant software. Because if one combination is found where it doesn't work, you can be sure that the day after every cheater will be running this config.
(Just to check, do you have a background in game development and/or low-level Windows/Linux programming? I got all of that and I can tell you, nothing that looks easy from the outside is actually easy. I think you are vastly underestimating how much work goes into something until it "just works as expected")
EA/Respawn somehow haven't had a problem with doing that with Apex legends.
Apparently, their cost calculation is different. Also, Fortnite has about 50x active users compared to Apex Legends. That also changes a lot.
Sweeny said it doesn't make business sense for them and if it will make sense in the future, they will support Linux.
I'm pretty sure that someone who does know their business figures and frequently has to justify them to shareholders has a better overview about what makes business sense for them than anyone of us.
I'm pretty sure that someone who does know their business figures and frequently has to justify them to shareholders has a better overview about what makes business sense for them than anyone of us.
Every time someone makes the business argument all I can think of Microsoft flopping with Windows Phone despite all their money. Google failing with Stadia and losing opportunity they had with hangouts to imessage. LG bowing out of smartphones. Blackberry and Nokia too late to enter smartphones despite prior dominance. Epic was so late into trying their hand at digital distribution until 2018 when doing it earlier over the past decade would have made entry easier.
Companies just because they have money doesn't mean they know what they are doing. And sometimes even less than random people.
Companies just because they have money doesn't mean they know what they are doing. And sometimes even less than random people.
Well, if half a million people are guessing on a choice of two options, some are going to get it right. But that's not due to the insight of the people, but due to numbers.
Every time someone makes the business argument all I can think of Microsoft flopping with Windows Phone despite all their money. Google failing with Stadia and losing opportunity they had with hangouts to imessage. LG bowing out of smartphones. Blackberry and Nokia too late to enter smartphones despite prior dominance. Epic was so late into trying their hand at digital distribution until 2018 when doing it earlier over the past decade would have made entry easier.
These examples really don't apply here.
- Windows Phone, Blackberry and Nokia were caught up in a massive market change where they where too little and too late.
- Stadia was a purpously risky gamble to be first at a potential "next big thing" and was scrapped when the global economy crumbled and cloud gaming showed no signs of wide spread adoption. If anything, this is the opposite situation than Epic and Linux.
- Hangouts was renamed and merged with other Google chat apps, but in the end they now have messages, which is the messenger with the highest install count worldwide.
- EGS is still a comparably new thing, considering that Steam is in the market since ~20 years while the EGS is here only ~5 years. They are growing steadily, so this is not an example that we can look at in retrospect, because it's still unfolding. Also, sure it would have been great if they would have had to run a game distribution platform in 2003, but their money shower didn't start until Fortnite exploded in 2017. And they pretty much immediately got into the business when they had the money to.
Also, there are some other factors in play that you didn't consider.
Smartphones exploded between 2007 and 2010. It went from nothing to almost everything in just a few years, and those who got lucky and where ready at the right time managed to take the new market. Windows Mobile proves that it's not enough to be super early. You need the right timing in both directions.
There is no indication that Linux will have >50% market share among gamers within the next 3 years. Yes, it nudged Linux over the 3% mark but at that rate it's going to take a long while. Also, contrary to smartphones vs feature phones, the steam deck is an additional gaming PC for on the go. It doesn't replace desktop gaming.
Also, when it comes to mobile gaming, the Steam Deck is a distant fourth between Android, iOS and the Switch.
And even if you limit the scope to x86 mobile gaming, they are by far not the only competitor. There are lots of others, many of them using Windows, who do the same.
And the biggest edge the Steam Deck is it's value, because Steam subsidizes the Deck with their Store sales. Most people don't care whether it runs Linux or not.
It feels like none of the replies to you actually read your comment. I appreciate you taking the time to offer up possible explanations with examples. Thank you!
Yeah, pretty much all answers are "You are wrong, the code change is easy".
Kinda sad that people don't make it even to the first line.
lol why are you simping for them? they made a choice not to do this. they could easily do it with their manpower if they didn't, you know, keep laying people off in order to maximize profits. You're also overinflating how difficult it is to make games cross-platform compatible with the tools available today.
It sucks a lot when people are so deep in their petty trench fights over brands that they think there is only "Me for this, You for that, You simp".
I don't care about Epic and neither do I care for Steam. I buy my games where I get them the cheapest: Key resellers. And I don't care on which online store the cheapest price lands.
If I was still developing games, I'd deploy them on both or on the one who pays me the most for an exclusivity deal.
With that out of the way: I am only explaining simple backgrounds to people interested to listen.
But sadly so many people fight over an online shop as if it was politics.
Do you fight like that for your favourite online retailer? Or your favourite supermarket chain?
What Steam and Epic do is business. They are no charities. They do stuff that makes them money. So any sane user should see it as a business transaction and buy where the price is best for what you get.
Dude, steam ships with a bunch of libraries enabling cross distro support. It ain't that complicated https://gitlab.steamos.cloud/steamrt/steam-runtime-tools/-/blob/main/docs/container-runtime.md
Did you read the second line of my post?
The code changes aren't the issue.
Did you read my comment? They ship with libraries to unify distribution across distros
I said: Code changes are easy, all the other things in regards to supporting playing on Linux (anticheat, support requests, testing, ...) is hard.
You said: But code changes are easy because steam has libraries to unify distribution.
Do you see the problem here?
What are you going to tell me next? That code changes are easy?
it's just one checkbox in your fudging EAC. Why can so many windows only multiplayer games be played with EAC under Linux but not Fortnät?
I love Lemmy, but it's quickly becoming a vacuum chamber of blind hate for certain people and topics.
While yah, some of that statement is bs. Not all of it is false.
Shit like "JusT ENabLE PRoTon!" Is ridiculously simplistic and not how anything works. Otherwise every game everywhere would just do it.
It is well known that Tim Sweeney has an unfounded hate for Linux in general and routinely makes up lies to support his idiotic views.
Especially in the case of a game like Fortnite, which uses EAC, it would require enabling a checkbox and recompiling once to make it compatible with proton, which in itself is a rather unnecessary measure imposed by Epic.
So no, it's not simplistic, it's literally how it would work in this case. As demonstrated by the countless other games which use EAC and did just that.
Valve has sold multiple millions of steam decks. Fortnite is a popular game. What better way to grow a platform than to develop a popular game for it? Am I not wrong in thinking you'd increase profits having invested in another area? Especially if it would only take "a few more programmers"? I know Tim Sweeney doesn't want to provide profit to Valve and I know he's also a fucking idiot, but more money is more money...
Tim Sweeney has a personal grudge against Linux.
Maybe the nerdy Linux guy stole his gf in high school?
Absolute BS, all they have to do is enable proton support and people will go out of their way to play it. Tim Sweeney is simply being a slimy jackass.
Tim Sweeney is awesome. He’s one of the biggest conservation donors in my state and is personally responsible for permanently saving over 50,000 acres of land from development, protecting crucial habitat in a rapidly developing state, allowing public trail and nature preserves to get created. He lives in a normal house and drives a normal car and hikes the land he preserves when he’s not working. He’s a billionaire that lives a modest life, doesn’t mess with politics, and a true philanthropist. He doesn’t give to get press. The few articles out there about his philanthropy are because reporters stumble across it when reporting on whatever new nature preserve is opening in their area.
He might have some business practices that are problematic but are endemic to the industry.
Doing good with one hand doesn't excuse using the other to smother FOSS progress. No matter how humble you are materially, or reasonable in local policy, that doesn't mean he is right in the many bullshit stances he's dug himself into where the games industry is concerned. He does have a point in some places, but holy shit is it hard to take him seriously when half the shit he gripes about other companies doing, Epic does too. And that's before we talk about the scummy BS only Epic does.
hey look, a billionaire bootlicker, what are the odds