this post was submitted on 30 Apr 2025
133 points (100.0% liked)

Chat

7574 readers
114 users here now

Relaxed section for discussion and debate that doesn't fit anywhere else. Whether it's advice, how your week is going, a link that's at the back of your mind, or something like that, it can likely go here.


Subcommunities on Beehaw:


This community's icon was made by Aaron Schneider, under the CC-BY-NC-SA 4.0 license.

founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
 

I want to draw attention to the elephant in the room.

Leading up to the election, and perhaps even more prominently now, we've been seeing droves of people on the internet displaying a series of traits in common.

  • Claiming to be leftists
  • Dedicating most of their posting to dismantling any power possessed by the left
  • Encouraging leftists not to vote or to vote for third party candidates
  • Highlighting issues with the Democratic party as being disqualifying while ignoring the objectively worse positions held by the Republican party
  • Attacking anyone who promotes defending leftist political power by claiming they are centrists and that the attacker is "to the left of them"
  • Using US foreign policy as a moral cudgel to disempower any attempt at legitimate engagement with the US political system
  • Seemingly doing nothing to actually mount resistance against authoritarianism

When you look at an aerial view of these behaviors in conjunction with one another, what they're accomplishing is pretty plain to see, in my opinion. It's a way of utilizing the moral scrupulousness of the left to cut our teeth out politically. We get so caught up in giving these arguments the benefit of the doubt and of making sure people who claim to be leftists have a platform that we're missing ideological parasites in our midst.

This is not a good-faith discourse. This is not friendly disagreement. This is, largely, not even internal disagreement. It is infiltration, and it's extremely effective.

Before attacking this argument as lacking proof, just do a little thought experiment with me. If there is a vector that allows authoritarians to dismantle all progress made by the left, to demotivate us and to detract from our ability to form coalitions and build solidarity, do you really think they wouldn't take advantage of it?

By refusing to ever question those who do nothing with their time in our spaces but try to drive a wedge between us, to take away our power and make us feel helpless and hopeless, we're giving them exactly that vector. I am telling you, they are using it.

We need to stop letting them. We need to see it for what it is, get the word out, and remember, as the political left, how to use the tools that we have to change society. It starts with us between one another. It starts with what we do in the spaces that we inhabit. They know this, and it's why they're targeting us here.

Stop being an easy target. Stop feeding the cuckoo.

you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] anarchiddy@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 22 hours ago (1 children)

Ok.... so it has no relevance with MLK's letter then? You agree fully with his methods and contentions in the letter, like the below? I don't have any idea what you're trying to say, you'll have to use more of your words.

spoiler

The purpose of our direct action program is to create a situation so crisis packed that it will inevitably open the door to negotiation. I therefore concur with you in your call for negotiation. Too long has our beloved Southland been bogged down in a tragic effort to live in monologue rather than dialogue.

spoiler

We know through painful experience that freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed. Frankly, I have yet to engage in a direct action campaign that was “well timed” in the view of those who have not suffered unduly from the disease of segregation. For years now I have heard the word “Wait!” It rings in the ear of every Negro with piercing familiarity. This “Wait” has almost always meant “Never.” We must come to see, with one of our distinguished jurists, that “justice too long delayed is justice denied.”

spoiler

While Mr. Boutwell is a much more gentle person than Mr. Connor, they are both segregationists, dedicated to maintenance of the status quo. I have hope that Mr. Boutwell will be reasonable enough to see the futility of massive resistance to desegregation. But he will not see this without pressure from devotees of civil rights.

spoiler

Actually, we who engage in nonviolent direct action are not the creators of tension. We merely bring to the surface the hidden tension that is already alive. We bring it out in the open, where it can be seen and dealt with.

spoiler

We must come to see that, as the federal courts have consistently affirmed, it is wrong to urge an individual to cease his efforts to gain his basic constitutional rights because the quest may precipitate violence. Society must protect the robbed and punish the robber.

spoiler

And I am further convinced that if our white brothers dismiss as “rabble rousers” and “outside agitators” those of us who employ nonviolent direct action, and if they refuse to support our nonviolent efforts, millions of Negroes will, out of frustration and despair, seek solace and security in black nationalist ideologies—a development that would inevitably lead to a frightening racial nightmare.

spoiler

So I have not said to my people: “Get rid of your discontent.” Rather, I have tried to say that this normal and healthy discontent can be channeled into the creative outlet of nonviolent direct action. And now this approach is being termed extremist.

spoiler

So the question is not whether we will be extremists, but what kind of extremists we will be. Will we be extremists for hate or for love? Will we be extremists for the preservation of injustice or for the extension of justice? In that dramatic scene on Calvary’s hill three men were crucified. We must never forget that all three were crucified for the same crime—the crime of extremism. Two were extremists for immorality, and thus fell below their environment. The other, Jesus Christ, was an extremist for love, truth and goodness, and thereby rose above his environment. Perhaps the South, the nation and the world are in dire need of creative extremists.

spoiler

But the judgment of God is upon the church as never before. If today’s church does not recapture the sacrificial spirit of the early church, it will lose its authenticity, forfeit the loyalty of millions, and be dismissed as an irrelevant social club with no meaning for the twentieth century. Every day I meet young people whose disappointment with the church has turned into outright disgust.

[–] Dagwood222@lemm.ee 1 points 21 hours ago (1 children)

I'm waiting for you to post all the times MLK explicitly spoke out on LGBTQIA+ rights.

I've read the letter, and somehow the guy who worked hand in hand with Bayard Ruskin never mentions that stuff.

Almost as if King understood that you had to use strategy.

[–] anarchiddy@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 21 hours ago (1 children)

Lmao, I think i'm picking up the clues now. You don't like the letter because you're in the picture

“I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action" <-- That's you!

Lol, I guess if I wanted to be charitable I could acknowledge the point you're trying to make, which is that civil rights activists like MLK knew that speaking on some issues could undermine the effectiveness of their agitation on other issues (such as MLK avoiding speaking about Vietnam because he wanted Johnson to be sympathetic to civil rights issues) - but you would have to assume that the advantage gained by not speaking on those issues outweighs the disadvantage from denying that justice being demanded. I'd say, in some recent cases, complacency and denial of justice have proven to be more disadvantageous than not.

Still, neither MLK nor Douglass would say that the tension and agitation caused by civil rights protests is the fault of protestors. MLK would tell you that "we who engage in nonviolent direct action are not the creators of tension" and also that the democrats risk loosing 'young people whose disappointment with the party is turning into outright disgust', and that they will bring about their own destruction by continuing to deny the justice being demanded.

[–] Dagwood222@lemm.ee 1 points 18 hours ago (1 children)

Lol, I guess if I wanted to be charitable I could acknowledge the point you’re trying to make, which is that civil rights activists like MLK knew that speaking on some issues could undermine the effectiveness of their agitation on other issues

You keep showing I'm right, and keep making my point for me, but somehow you're so tangled up in yourself you can't actually admit it.

And you've got your history wrong. King did speak out against Viet-Nam War.

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/April-4/martin-luther-king-jr-speaks-out-against-the-war

[–] anarchiddy@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 18 hours ago* (last edited 16 hours ago) (1 children)

He spoke out about it 4 years after its start, and explicitly said he avoided it for so long because of Johnson. I was trying to give you another example of your point, genius. Do a little more than picking the first Google result.

Oops, looks like you stopped before the good part:

but you would have to assume that the advantage gained by not speaking on those issues outweighs the disadvantage from denying that justice being demanded. I’d say, in some recent cases, complacency and denial of justice have proven to be more disadvantageous than not.

Still, neither MLK nor Douglass would say that the tension and agitation caused by civil rights protests is the fault of protestors. MLK would tell you that “we who engage in nonviolent direct action are not the creators of tension” and also that the democrats risk loosing ‘young people whose disappointment with the party is turning into outright disgust’, and that they will bring about their own destruction by continuing to deny the justice being demanded.

[–] Dagwood222@lemm.ee 1 points 16 hours ago (1 children)

but you would have to assume that the advantage gained by not speaking on those issues outweighs the disadvantage from denying that justice being demanded. I’d say, in some recent cases, complacency and denial of justice have proven to be more disadvantageous than not.

Again, you prove my point. A person could apply King's own words to show how he'd denied the rights of the LGBTQIA+ community.

It's really amazing to me how you can keep on disproving your own assertations and still not notice it.

Exactly the way King not speaking on Vietnam proves my point.

[–] anarchiddy@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 16 hours ago (1 children)

A person could apply King’s own words to show how he’d denied the rights of the LGBTQIA+ community.

But clearly not in the case of Palestinian liberation, since democrats' refusal to address it lost them the election. King not speaking about Vietnam actually proves my point, because not only did he extract the concessions from Johnson he was working for on civil rights, but he caved to pressure because it was no longer advantageous to deny it as an issue since popular sentiment was overwhelming.

It's not amazing, but actually kind of pathetic, how desperate you are to dodge the points i'm making. I'm not surprised.

[–] Dagwood222@lemm.ee 1 points 16 hours ago (1 children)

It’s not amazing, but actually kind of pathetic, how desperate you are to dodge the points i’m making.

Literally every time you've tried to prove something you've ended up proving my point.

In fact, you brought up Winston Churchill and the need for everyone to line up behind his leadership to beat the Nazis.

And by bringing up Gaza you've done it again. Trump has tripled down on his support for Israel and the slaughter has only gotten worse.

I wish I did as good a job selling my ideas as you have.

[–] anarchiddy@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 16 hours ago (1 children)

Lmao, just saying 'you proved my point' doesn't make it true, but I'm ok with walking away from this one cus it really seems like you need it more lol

[–] Dagwood222@lemm.ee 1 points 6 hours ago (1 children)

My point was that it's better to be practical and take small steps than it is to be idealistic and make no progress, or even go backwards.

I used Douglas and MLK as examples of people doing what they could, and you demonstrated that's exactly what they did.

You even showed that King had avoided talking about Viet-Nam because he didn't want to upset President Johnson.

[–] anarchiddy@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 4 hours ago (1 children)

Right, and my point is that even while MLK and FD both made their own strategic choices for advancing their causes, both have pointed out repeatedly that those who do not feel the burn of justice denied cannot set the timeline for those who do. It's the actual point MLK was making when he said:

spoiler

I have yet to engage in a direct action campaign that was “well timed” in the view of those who have not suffered unduly from the disease of segregation

and Frederick Douglass, who said:

spoiler

Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet depreciate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground. They want rain without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters. This struggle may be a moral one; or it may be a physical one; or it may be both moral and physical; but it must be a struggle. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will.

Even if there is some objective measure for when it is time for radical justice and when it is not, that determination can't be imposed by those who are unaffected by the injustice of inequality. To them, there will always be a 'more convenient season' for justice. Those who profess to seek the same justice as those who cry out but refuse to stand with them can complain all they want about the methods designed to agitate them into action, but (by MLK's estimation), righteousness is always on the side of those fighting for justice.

[–] Dagwood222@lemm.ee 1 points 4 hours ago (1 children)

And that's what's so funny about you.

You can't just say that I made a valid point and move on. You're so consumed with "winning" that you keep repeating exactly what I said telling me I am wrong.

As long as we keep agreeing, I'll keep pointing it out.

[–] anarchiddy@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 3 hours ago (1 children)

Lmao, sorry, FD's writing is so loud I can't hear your sealioning over the sound of his righteous fury

The American people have this to learn: that where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob, and degrade them, neither person nor property is safe

Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will. Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them, and these will continue till they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress.

[–] Dagwood222@lemm.ee 1 points 1 hour ago (1 children)

And where exactly does he say that the only thing we should do is lash out mindlessly without any sort of strategy? If you show me somethign where he advocated barreling along without any sort of plan, I'll concede the point.

[–] anarchiddy@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 1 hour ago (1 children)

The point isn't that we must always chose agitation, the point is that you cannot blame the presence of tension on those who agitate for justice, because the tension was already present. Those who agitate against injustice are merely bringing that tension into the light.

You cannot set the timeline for another's liberation.

[–] Dagwood222@lemm.ee 1 points 35 minutes ago

So, you're agreeing with me again and saying that we should use strategy?