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UK’s first trans judge appeals to European court of human rights over supreme court ruling
(www.theguardian.com)
this post was submitted on 29 Apr 2025
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UK Politics
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Nah, I've seen some be completely mental and threaten to burn down their GP or be absolutely unhinged. I've also seen people be unhinged and want them to kill themselves. It's madness.
You can find unhinged crazies on both sides of just about any argument. It shouldn't really affect what you think of the subject matter at hand anyway tbh.
Makes it hard to figure out who to listen to tbh.
the only argument that matters: let people live their lives however they like as long as it doesn’t impact anyone else
trans rights fit this absolutely perfectly
That's fair, but the debate is now about impacting everyone else
but how are trans people impacting anyone else?
and if that were all that was happening, maybe, maybe it’d be reasonable… but trans people are being vilified for simply existing… the “debate” isn’t in good faith from 1 side to start with, so how are we meant to discuss real issues if the position of 1 side is extermination?
It's not about them existing. More about women's changing rooms, bathrooms, sports teams, etc. As well as punishing other people for not regarding trans women as women. It should be pretty clear cut that we shouldn't be exterminating trans people. I have not met anyone who held that opinion at all.
Listen to the real arguments and ignore the crazies?
Who have the real arguments and who are the crazies
Real arguments have substance, are self-consistent, and start from reasonable assumptions.
You have not seen people trying to burn down their GP. Quit making shit up.
As for being suicidal... That sounds like a pretty good reason to give people access to the medical care they actually need.
Imagine for a minute that you are a man and were in a car accident. During this accident your dick was cut off.
Surgical techniques exist to reattach your dick but the law says you must now live as a woman. You find a doctor who is willing to reattach your penis, something that you don't have an infinite amount of time to do because it's rapidly becoming a non-viable penis.
Suddenly, some asshole goes on television and says that people who want to have their penises reattached are pedophiles and any doctor who helps them is a monster. They put your picture on the news, they tell everybody that you're trying to pretend you're not a woman now.
How much of that do you think you need to put up with before you get pretty fucking pissed off?
Who's insane here? Who's acting irrationally? Who is the aggressor?
I'm a bog standard model of human male but I think if I were put in that situation I'd be weighing the value of the life of a person who would deny me my own body.
How about you quit gaslighting me?
I don't necessarily have anything against sex reassignment surgery. It's a person's body, and if it's what medical experts think is best for their immediate mental wellbeing, then I think it's fair, although should be a last resort as it's permanent.
I am aware some people do get the sex reassignment surgery and it doesn't help them, turns out it was a different problem and they just persuaded themselves that it would be what would fix their problem (which occasionally is other traumas or underlying self hatred). I've also known people who've pulled out of transitioning due to them realising it wasn't the solution to their problem.
I've also seen people who've tried everything, tried to live a normal life, but the dysphoria also got them down.
I do think there should be research done into seeing if there is a cure or therapies for gender dysphoria, and use sex changes as a last resort. but right now, sex changes appear to be one of the most effective options if someone is truly experiencing dysphoria. But again, they should have everything else ruled out first (instead of the headcase that I referenced in the video above, sounds like she first self diagnosed online, started self treating, THEN went to her GP demanding further treatment for an illness they hadn't even been diagnosed with. That's like the time I had symptoms of anaemia and people were suggesting I skip the GP and get iron tablets, when it turned out to be a folate deficiency, because I went to a GP)
I'm aware of the arguments for and against the trans debate. I've been often changing my opinions on it, back and forth. But I hate the climate around it where you have to conform to a specific viewpoint or get labelled as a "bigot".
To both sides, what I'd say: If you believe me to be a monster for not 100% agreeing with you, then just conclude that I'm a monster already. I'm sick of playing these games, trying to change my opinion to appease others. I'd rather we would focus on supporting people and preserving life and what's best for them.
The most effective (and reversible) treatment should be a last resort, because you think that people aren't truly experiencing dysphoria, and even if they are everything else needs to be ruled out first.
the video you cite is someone who is impoverished and unwell dealing with a system that is intentionally disfunctional and has clearly been overreacting making threats that aren't even really actionable considering how poor they are. Having a mental health condition exacerbated by poverty and a disfunctional healthcare system doesn't mean your other conditions aren't real.
Broadly speaking being gender nonconforming is more likely to cause you to end up in poverty simply because your bigoted family might just cut all support from you and leave you to fend for yourself with a hostile system. having to live in poverty and not even able to get medical care then exacerbates pretty much every underlying mental health issue regardless of gender.
Sex change operations carry permanent effects. They aren't reversible like puberty blockers. A simple google search will teach you that. This is where emotion and agenda contradicts medical fact. If somebody isn't actually experiencing dysphoria, then they shouldn't get a sex change. It needs to be confirmed that they actually are experiencing dysphoria and not self conscious like some people I know have been, including myself, and thus thinking a different gender identity is the solution when it isn't. At one point in my life I wanted my nose removed.
A family kicking someone out for having gender identity issues is disgusting and not okay.
Can you clarify what 'sex change operations' is intended to refer to, are you calling every step of gender affirming care 'sex change operations' or is something like hormones distinct in your mind?
The effects of going on hormones is largely reversible, surgery obviously less so.
The reality is vast majority of the people who do de-transition do so because of familial or social pressures, often social coercion. That's not to discount that there are ones who have some misdiagnosis leading them to pursue care that they didn't want. I just don't see how arbitrarily limiting care for everyone else solves this perceived issue other than via effective austerity- not allowing anyone to have care.
Top and bottom surgery.
I don't mean limiting care except for where it's actually unnecessary. Just have enough stringency.
Not even saying we should be more stringent. We might already be stringent enough.
If you have 6 year wait times it sounds like the issue is with the healthcare system failing to meet demand. In the video you linked they were struggling to get even hormones prescribed, citing a bias against self report and diy HRT. I can relate as while I've been able to get it prescribed I've had to pay out of pocket myself (with coupons) for injections because my insurance prioritizes oral and patches first because that's what the formulary says. It doesn't make medical sense because I can't really get to a therapeutic dose on patches, it doesn't make financial sense because patches are way more expensive than shots, but it is an arbitrary decision that makes getting care more difficult.
I think the system is already overly strict, also not the same everywhere, especially for even being able to start the transition process. For transfems facial hair is something that's going to need 'cosmetic' procedures (laser/electrolysis) to remove. The insurance pathway for that in my experience essentially requires you to be on HRT for a considerable length of time before they will even cover the procedure. That kind of wait can really compound mental stresses. I have a good connection for electrolysis and had enough income to get it done in parallel with starting HRT without insurance, but that's the exception.
A "bias" against self report and DIY HRT is understandable as the person has likely just been hanging out in forums and Discord servers but not assessed by a professional. The NHS wait times are a problem for every health condition and the whole system needs to be improved for everybody, not just for trans care.
I think it's important for it to be assessed first to make sure that necessary care is being funded by the taxpayer and not just cosmetic surgery
If your health system is taking 6 years to provide people with a hormone prescription it's clearly complete dog shit. Frankly sounds more like a warcrime than a health service. I don't think that making the care it provides worse for miniorities is going to fix how fucked up it is for everyone else. Maybe try fixing the system itself instead of punishing people for failing to conform to bullshit standards designed to deny care.
Classifying things which are neccessary care as "cosmetic" is how things are gatekept in our for-profit healthcare, as opposed to hand-wringing about misdiagnosis in service of cruel austerity.
I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I did say we should focus on fixing the system overall. Our healthcare system is NOT for-profit. You're wrong about that.
I know it's not for profit, I explained how classifications are used under our for profit system to do the same things you do under your alleged healthcare system.
This is a UK politics thread on the UK politics sub on the UK based instance. What do you mean by "our". If you're one of those trumpian interfering yanks, then admit it.
Yeah, I'm offering you my experience with the US's horrifyingly dysfunctional healthcare system that was still able to give me a prescription within months rather than 6+ years. Maybe you should stop trying to blame trans people for your system failing so many people for so long.
At no point did I ever blame trans people. I don't know how you even read that out of what I said.
here's the things that jumped out at me:
based on this I can only conclude that you don't consider self report people to be trans. You're clearly shitting on them for not following the 6 year labyrinth of your health system to get hormones and a proper diagnosis.
from what I can tell your main concern is continuing austerity rather than just figuring out what care is needed and providing it.
I can conclude and you either missed or dismissed my point about cosmetic surgery. things like electrolysis on the face to remove facial hair may be "cosmetic" but it's also kind of a big deal for transfems who don't follow the puberty blocker track. It involves a lot of work in the system to even get to have that covered, I can assure you that nobody is getting recreational facial electrolysis.
if your concern is actually taxpayers money getting spent well maybe you lot should spend less money on weapons, cops and tax cuts? it's what I tell them here because those things are money pits.
I'm just saying that the surgeries to the face shouldn't be handed out no-questions asked.
It's easy for you as a yank (who tend to think what applies in America applies everywhere else, as yanks tend to be incredibly self centred and trying to project themselves everywhere else) to tell us how to spend our taxpayer's money. Weapons are needed because Europe is literally at war right now, and the UK's police are underfunded (except possibly Northern Ireland, but that region is still dealing with the aftermath of what could be described as a civil war spanning several decades)
Only 3.8% of the treasury goes towards police and 4.8% goes towards defence. Compare that to 18% goes towards health and 22% goes towards welfare.
We don't need you lot telling us how to run our country with your BS. We don't need foreigners telling us how to run our fediverse instances either.
It's really telling how as soon as someone critiques the way things are run on swamp island you just get defensive about 'foreigners' rather than taking the constructive criticism about your alleged healthcare system.
I'm an anarchist, I don't like any of these fucking countries, they're all capitalist shitholes, some more so than others. Fuck the wars, literally just setting money on fire and acting like the problem is minorities getting healthcare.
The only way this happens right now pretty much everywhere is if you have money, then you can get whatever gender affirming surgery you want, cis or trans. The issue I have is that even the first step of this process like hormones and non-invasive procedures are already extremely gatekept, do you think they should be more accessible or less?
I'll need to look more into it. I'm not an expert on the subject and to what level they are gatekept. I just don't agree with some people's opinions that they should be handed out with no questions asked due to someone "self certifying"
Classic american thinking that every single country has their dogshit pay-to-win healthcare system.
at 6 years to provide service you might as well not have a healthcare system
You've actually seen trans people, in person, threaten to burn down a surgery building? I doubt this.
As for people being suicidal, that's a known problem which happens as a result of being trans in a country that wants to deny them support, which is exactly why trans people are trying to get recognition in the first place. Denying that isn't exactly going to make their mental health any better, and they can't be blamed for that.
I didn't see it in person. But I did see it online.
So you claim to have seen evidence.
That trans people come as sane or insane as everyone else.
Not sure you are making any point at all.
I've also seen insane trans-critical people as well, with a severe lack of compassion.
I could repost my comment in a conservative group and get the same backlash but for calling people who are critical of transgenderism insane.
As I say. Every group of humanity comes in all levels of mental health.
Non of it makes any difference to this debate. Other then to normalise trans behaviour.
I thought the whole thing with gender dysphoria is that it wasn't normal?
Uncommon and abnormal are not the same thing.
Something can be rare and still normal.
Maybe we have our definitions in a twist. I wouldn't define "abnormal" to be negative or derogatory. Just "uncommon"
Uncommon things are entirely normal.
It is entirely normal for humans to develop different body forms and mental makeups.
It is the very process of long term evolution. And to be expected in any species.
I don't think a "normal" person exists
You give up the game when you call transgender an "ism"
Its hard to take the trans community serious when they are just as bigoted as those they shit on. Extremely aggressive online moderation too in those communities. Theres gotta be a phrase for someone who acts like those they despise.
I'm not good with terminology around these subjects