204
this post was submitted on 02 Nov 2024
204 points (95.9% liked)
Asklemmy
43945 readers
541 users here now
A loosely moderated place to ask open-ended questions
Search asklemmy ๐
If your post meets the following criteria, it's welcome here!
- Open-ended question
- Not offensive: at this point, we do not have the bandwidth to moderate overtly political discussions. Assume best intent and be excellent to each other.
- Not regarding using or support for Lemmy: context, see the list of support communities and tools for finding communities below
- Not ad nauseam inducing: please make sure it is a question that would be new to most members
- An actual topic of discussion
Looking for support?
Looking for a community?
- Lemmyverse: community search
- sub.rehab: maps old subreddits to fediverse options, marks official as such
- !lemmy411@lemmy.ca: a community for finding communities
~Icon~ ~by~ ~@Double_A@discuss.tchncs.de~
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
A time capsule
Place photos and some small objects maybe even a usb key, dvdr or cdr with a video of you explaining everything and telling the viewer who you are, what year it is, what's going on and what's important to you right now. Place it all in a water tight container, maybe even an iron case and weld it shut.
If you have small kids, tell them what you're doing and show them .... maybe they or their kids or your descendants might dig it up some day.
Of all the places I've renovated, I would have enjoyed finding something from someone else's life.
Best bet is long term optical discs or long term magnetic tape. USB keys are not good for long term storage. USB keys use NAND memory that is a series of floating gate metal oxide semiconductors (FGMOS). These operate by using Fowler-Nordheim tunneling, in where a charge is carried along a regular style fin field-effect transistor (FINFET) and a charge above the transistor's channel causes some electrons to quantum tunnel into floating gates that are isolated by oxides.
While these floating gates are sealed off from everything, so the charge should stay "indefinitely", quantum effects cause some of the electrons to "leak" out of the floating gate, causing a degradation of the stored signal. Typically there's a refresh circuit within the USB key's integrated circuit that takes care of that and USB data can last seemingly forever. However, that refresh circuit requires a small amount of power, which if you store the USB stick somewhere for years on end, will never get powered.
This is the reason why flash memory only assures data can be retained for about ten years without power. Eventually the electrons "trapped" in floating gate have enough time to tunnel out of the floating gate completely obliterating the signal. The tunnel events aren't many per second, but give enough time, and all of those events add up. Paired with the whole thing that USB sticks mostly no longer use binary logic levels. Most are now using something like four or eight logic levels. So instead of there just being on and off, there is 0V-0.7V = 00, 1V-1.7V = 01, 2V-2.7V = 10, 3V-3.7V = 11 logic levels. So a small amount of charge loss can create a different bit pattern.
One thing to look at for long term storage is something like M-DISC. The matter by which the burned data onto the optical media is made is via a process that takes about 10,000 years (estimated) to break down. However, the disc itself is in a polycarbonate thermoplastic that has an average breakdown of only about 1,000 years in extremely dry environments and about a tenth of that in your average sealed lock box environments.
Your average spinning disk hard drive can store information for some time, but the storage requirements are pretty intense and even then hard drives loose about 1% of the magnetic strength per year without power. And about 70 years is the max before the various magnetic bits that form the low level format of the disk have degraded without power to the point that the disk has too many bad sectors to be called usable. But outside of that, the biggest fault is mechanical failure. No matter how well you think you've stored a drive, it's never good enough and the spinny bits always fail from becoming too fragile from pervasive oxidation. Basically the drive will spin up only to tear itself apart as some weaken part of the armature flies into the spinning platters.
But USB sticks will only give you about a decade before the stored information fades away into the quantum ether.
Thanks for the detailed explanation .... now I know not to rely on usb for extremely long term storage ... never understood how they worked until I read your comment.
It makes me wonder ... what long term storage would be the best option for storing digital information .... like to store something for 100 or 200 years? Anything beyond that and I would just rely on writing something in stone and burying it.
The biggest factor with passive storage, something that's not refreshed. Optical media that's made to last. M-DISC comes to mind, but there's no proof that worse case 100 years is a valid claim. Chemically speaking, a well kept disc should keep 100 years, but that's chemical composition in an ideal case. Nothing in manufacturing is perfect, so impurities are always going to be there robbing the lifespan of these discs.
Magnetic tape ideally lasts decades if not close to a century, but these are tapes that are kept in incredibly controlled conditions. If you've ever worked in the server world you'll know that any plain Jane LTO magnetic tape can't be trusted after collecting dust for anywhere close to five years.
We have scrolls, we have books, and we have stone tablets that have endured centuries, but the key in all of those is how well they were kept. The construction matters, but the bigger aspect is the environment they were kept in. For digital media, we don't know any real way to keep digital data in a passive state for centuries because, well, we haven't had digital data for that long. We've got really old punch cards that are close to that age, but even then, some of the oldest stacks are now sitting in hermetically sealed cases and are actively upkept to prevent UV damage by clear coating those cases on a regular basis.
And that's the thing with digital media, keeping it in an active storage rather than passive may be the key for centuries of longevity. USB sticks are fine so long as someone remembers to plug them in and allow them to refresh every some many years. Most USB sticks use ceramic capacitors, so leakage there isn't too much an issue. The bigger thing might be corrosion of the various traces and pins, but if well kept, that might take decades to eventually make an impact.
Sometimes, I like to parallel digital long term storage as the Ship of Theseus. If you keep moving the data from one device to another, it's still the same data. And in that sense, the data can live forever. Even if there's a gap of say two decades, if you can still get to the data and convert it into something modern, the data lives on. It's not the original medium, but with digital data, it doesn't have to be, that's the neat thing about digital data.
I think people still are working on trying to wrap their heads around digital data versus the way we used to do it. You know, someone might have the family bible and we've got to keep it nice and tidy and careful with it, because with analog data the medium and the information are one in the same. And I think sometimes people look at family digital photo collections like that. Like it's the family bible and that we've got to keep it safe. But if it's a USB stick that you pull out every so often, look over it, and call it day. Maybe move the photos from the Walmart USB stick that you got in 2016 to the new 800TB USB-F stick you just got from neo-Amazon in 2073, those photos can live forever. You don't have to be careful with them anymore.
I think that's one of the reasons that open formats matter so much. If you stored all your family videos in Windows Media Format, what happens when Microsoft dies in the Second US Civil War of 2038? That's not helping you in 2073 to open those files on a format you can never figure out. But say you stored it in some open format. Now all you need is an implementation of that format and a compiler. And poof, now you have a modern codec to read the files of the before times.
It's one of those fun maybe slightly existential kinds of things. Nothing lasts, no matter how hard we try, nothing will last. All things forgotten decay, we can only slow that decay down, but we can't prevent it. But things that live, things that pass through the hands of the living, those things endure because there are people who put time, one of the most precious resources we have, into them. Our reward for that investment of time is something that continues beyond the decay.
I like to think of it as the balance of the universe. You get to keep this, but only if you give a bit of time to pay for keeping it. And sometimes it's crazy to think of how much that applies to. Also I likely shouldn't reply after having a few drinks. Wooooo!!
Environment makes all the difference for passive storage, sorry I really went out there on the reply.
Laser etching in glass could probably work well for long term storage.
Don't bother with a usb key. Flash memory is technically volatile, it just takes a while to blank. Unless you plug the key in every 5 to 10 years, it will start losing data. By the time the time capsule is unearthed, it will likely be blank or corrupted.
I wouldn't bother with the cdr or dvdr either, they're likely to be dead too in 30y.
Yeah. Just print out some tasteful nudes, seal them in a ziplock bag and you're good to go
I like your idea, but it just brings to mind how fragile all of our digital media is, not to mention the surrounding tech necessary to read and understand it. What we know works is to press your message to the future, grocery bill, whatever, into clay and then accidentally burn the city down around it -- good for millennia.
This is a really nice idea. Which is refreshing, because my go-to is always something mildly disturbing but not too scary or criminal.
If I were going the wholesome route, I'd add a paper note to the USB or other digital storage, though. If I were to find a LaserDisc from 1990, that would be more or less unreadable without expending some significant effort.
But maybe future folk will have magical devices that can read cassettes, 8-tracks, or whatever.
Of all the places you've renovated, in how many did you check the foundation under the toilet for hidden treasures?
I certainly hope OP will fix the toilet once and for all, so that the next time this pipe sees the day of light is when a bulldozer excavates the foundation for the next building.
None .... but if I had had a relative or friend tell me a story that someone had buried something there 50 years ago, I would have taken the time to dig it up while I was tearing down walls or breaking concrete.
Nah just trace a picture of Dickbutt.
@ininewcrow I wanna steal this idea.
@Beastlygr