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‘They will vote against Harris’: Arab Americans in Michigan desert Democrats over Gaza
(www.theguardian.com)
this post was submitted on 14 Oct 2024
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Context:
So with that context, my question is thus: It seems clear that Trump wouldn't change anything about the genocide in Gaza, and that he would bring more evil than the current status quo. So if you're an american voter, you obviously can't let Trump get in. But, Harris is gross to vote for as well, even if its a "lesser of the two evils" thing. What do you do? As far as I understand its basically one or the other, you dont really have any third party to vote for right?
It's more of a difference in practical values. At what point does the "lesser evil" itself become intolerable evil? Some people insist that you should vote for Hitler over 101% Hitler, that there is no intolerable level as long as there is a miniscule difference. Others have firm red lines in the sand, like genocide, where they advocate for abandoning them and pushing as hard as you can, even advocating for moves outside the electoral system like revolution.
So to put this in more practical terms, one would neither vote for Hitler or 101% Hitler, and instead vote for The Other Person who Isn't Much Hitler At All, or abstain or something, and protest and take action in other ways?
The "correct" answer is to vote for "Not Hitler" and join a revolutionary org, such as FRSO or PSL in the US.
Which candidate who opposes both Russia and Israel's genocide has a path to the presidency? Legitimately, fully feasible path in 3 weeks to get this candidate to have 270 electoral votes?
The point isn't to win the presidency, but to show the votes the Dems threw away by being genocidal, and again, joining revolutionary orgs.
So throw the country to the fascists polluting our homes, destroying our education system, rallying up people who enjoy committing hate crimes to other Americans. It's the Democrats fault we will repeat the events of 2016.
Got it.
Fascism is Capitalism in decay, electing democrats doesn't push fascism back.
Electing Republicans forces PoC and queer politicians to step down from death threats and fear of their livelihood. It removes safeguards for students and the disabled, for protestors and for communities who are dependent on support from their government.
When socialists run as Democrats, they get elected and accomplish small steps. Small steps are about the only actions we have.
What "Socialists" are running as Democrats? I'm aware of none.
Secondly, revolution is necessary and is absolutely an action we can take.
To quote a friend,
"Jabari Brisport. He ran as a Green Party candidate in 2017 with the backing of New York City Democratic Socialists of America. He lost 70-30 when he did that (that was a "respectable performance" for a Green Party candidate) and the Greens reaped exactly nothing from him running besides a "moral victory" that they haven't improved on or built off of since.
When Jabari again as a Democrat in 2020, he actually won. He's a big reason we got the Build Public Renewables Act passed--and a reason why bills such as the Clean Futures Act and the All-Electric Building Act get introduced and debated at all (because he helps introduce them and fight for them on behalf of the chapter). Thanks to him, there are now material, working class victories that socialists can point to for why people should elect us over moderate Democrats who don't care about any of this. If he just kept running as a Green, we probably wouldn't have been able to do any of that. running as a Green was a quixotic strategy that accomplished nothing for the working class, and he'd be the first to admit that."
It's wild, but running as a democratic candidate makes it so that we are able to accomplish more. So to throw that away to "show the Dems what they deserve" is completely contradictory to what we need to be doing to actually accomplish meaningful changes in our government.
Seems that he's just a Social Democrat, not a Socialist.
Alright then.
Your understanding is solid for not being an American. You're not missing anything substantial-- people who are voting 3rd party think that the "dems need to learn" and that the dems can't do whatever they want so their vote is supposed to be a punishment. But as you point out that if they really cared about this issue then they would vote for Harris because trump will do worse on this issue and all around. The time to make changes to our political system is not when you vote for president, but in the years leading up to that.
In other words, people voting for 3rd party or Trump over this issue are morons. It sucks that our political system is what it is but if you knowingly vote for anything other than the candidate promising not-fascism, then you are supporting fascism.
I just hope enough democrats understand this. I'm not happy with gaza either but our country is still recovering from the first shit show presidency of Trump, and fascists are closely watching this election.
incorrect you're missing context of reliably blue states. I most certainly dont need to vote for democrats and can essentially do what I want w/ respect to the presidential ticket.
All the nonsense from the liberal idiots in the democratic party miss this critical contextual bit of information. I happily vote 3rd party whenever there is one that aligns more closely with my goals. its just rare one does; because it simply doesn't matter in my state for the outcome.
My ballot typically goes:
all this blue no matter who are just brain dead lunacy by the party is essentially: The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final and most essential command.
Hopefully some day we'll be able to have reasonable conversations about the toxicity of the democratic party but we just are not there yet and unfortunately the Ukrainians and Palestinians are paying the price in blood and harris doesnt have the backbone to challenge her corporate owners. Biden lost my support when he broke the train union strike. I believe he and harris would have broken the port workers strike as well if it wasn't a month before the election.
things that prevent me from voting for harris:
until then I'll continue advocating for and campaigning for election reform and primarying useless democrats. She could probably swing my vote if she commits to khan and never breaking a strike as those are important to the health of our country and economy but at this point its clear she wont shift.
I'm glad you took one sentence out of context to tell me why youre not a moron. Good for you.. the context of the article is a swing state. While your ticket may not matter, in your opinion, telling this to other people is in direct support for facism. Gtfo
Edit: oh and i missed that its a 2 day account only commenting on this shit. Say hello to Russia for me and welcome to my block list
you're upset I deconstructed your entire position in a couple of paragraphs and think burying your head in the sand will resolve the obvious problems with your positions. (hint: they won't)
learn how to influence your politicians. voting for them when they dont support your interests doesn't work. being afraid of their opposition doesn't work. What have you done to fix FPTP voting issues? What have you done to prevent genocides?
I only quoted a single sentence you're entire post was predicated on it. you're the only moron because you lack contextual awareness; unlike the Palestinians in swing states. Good on them and I wish them the best of luck, I'm rooting for them and emailing my congress critters so they know that harris doesnt have my support is she continues her israel non-sense and issues with khan.
edit: seems like the pressure is working now harris just needs to come out and say she'll continue the enforcement of leahy and a cessation of hostilities. keep up the good work people few days left.
You always vote against the fascist and the guy who staged a coup. It's that simple.
This is correct. There are plenty of actions to be taken outside voting, but voting is quick, easy, and the bare fucking minimum. Vote and do whatever else you think you should do. If you don't vote (or just throw it away) then you're complicit in whatever happens.
So by that logic, if you vote for Harris and the genocide continues then you're complicit in whatever happens.
In fact, if you voted for Joe Biden, you're already complicit in a genocide.
Sure, and you have to accept your actions and your reasoning for them, and there are very good reasons to support Harris instead of Trump. Doing nothing and pretending you aren't complicit doesn't actually make it true. Your gotcha question is only appropriate for children.
Not supporting Harris is not the same as supporting Trump. Hope this helps!
they exist, but the electoral system is designed to keep them from gaining power. And since (most) states use first past the post, secondary preferences aren't taken into account, so if you vote third party when you would have voted for Harris otherwise you increase Trumps chance of winning. There's some argument to be made that voting third party or not voting might influence democrats in the future to change their policy to appeal to those voters but I don't know how realistic that is.
This is limiting the scope of thought to four years.
Democrats winning means genocide becomes fully normalized forever, whereas if Trump wins it means four more years of genocide but the democrats will have learnt they cannot ignore the left.
In the short term Trump will be more damaging, but in the long term it is very debatable which is worse.
Even more so if the guy who openly said murder is a genetic predisposition wins.
Who for the record is Donald J Trump.
Genocide is already normalized for republicans. If democrats get to normalize it as well, there will be no non-genocide option in 2028.
When you never draw a red line you signal that they can keep pushing the boundaries of evil.
Hmm. I can understand this perspective. I guess its a bit tough. As a trans person I would find it very hard to do anything that isn't actively working against trump being in power, because if he gets in power it's very likely that my life will be in danger (if I was an American). But at the same time, as mentioned before, it wouldn't be an easy sell for me to be voting pro-harris.
I guess your scenario doesn't mean you're going to vote for trump, just that you'll vote third party or spoil your ballot?
Directly voting for Trump will have the opposite effect. It will show democrats they should be more like Republicans because everyone was voting for Trump.
By putting the votes in a visible place (a third party), the democrats will observe they are missing out on a lot of votes which are directly cast for a left wing agenda. And instead of Dick Cheney they might show up with a left winger in their next campaign to win over those third party voters.
Donald Trump will not be a benefit in the short term. But rewarding democrats for only appealing to right wing voters will not be a benefit in the long term. They will shift even more to the right in 2028.
Yeah, that's what I thought.