this post was submitted on 31 Jul 2024
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This is really just a very specific type of socialism, as indicated by Lenin being here; an authoritarian who killed other socialists. This is about ML.
The first and last panels are right, but, for example, according to this post Anarcho-Communists don't exist. They don't believe in "evolving to a point" as the third panel says, they believe in jumping straight to that point. Also, Libertarian Socialists wouldn't really be fond of "elected committees" controlling things, as the second panel talks about; maybe electing people into leadership positions inside of a company/cooperative, or maybe even having unions make those decisions, but nothing above that.
They included a picture of Picard too, should I assume this is ML-utopianism and just shut down listening completely?
Also, I'm an anarchist and don't believe in "jumping to the point." We're not all teenagers with no concept of how societies work. We're opposed to the State and any form of imposed hierarchy. That I'm opposed to the State today doesn't mean I don't vote or that I'm just waiting around for the spirit of Good Anarchism to posses every person on Earth suddenly.
Like any reasonable person with an ideology, I make plans to spread my ideas to more people over time. The capitalist state isnt going to auddenly collapse into anarchy and if it did it woukd be terrible because other parts of the collapsing state are going to form monarchies, fascist authoritarian fortresses, and many other balkanized microstates. It would be the worst possible outcome for anarchists!
No, our goal is to enact socialism. Then to whither away the state apparatus into communism. Then to whither away the global hierarchy in favor of self-determination and negotiation.
In no universe do serious people think: Step 1: destroy all governance. Step 2: ????. Step 3: Anarchist utopia.
Good comment. Whether Marxist or Anarchist, goals must be built towards, and cannot be vibed into existence.
(Said the dude from .ml)
I really don't mean to be rude, but both you and the other user seem to have no concept of anarchism. I mean, what you said straight up makes no sense. Marxists and AnComms both have the same end goal, so what do you think the difference between them is?
Anarchist societies and groups exists and have existed throughout history; they didn't have to be "build towards" by taking control of the government first.
And please don't be telling me why you like or don't like anarchism; I'm arguing about what it is. Whether you like or think is viable is an entire different conversation.
They do not. AnComms want horizontalism as the end goal, Marxists want central planning and elected councils. Anarchists believe all hierarchy to inherently be an issue, while Marxists don't, and rely on central planning as a core concept for economic organization. I read both Anarchist and Marxist theory, despite being a Marxist, because Anarchists do make good points from time to time that can be adapted and learned from.
My point here is that Anarchists and Marxists are united against Capitalism and Imperialism, but Anarchists are also against verticality with respect to organization, while Marxists are not, which is the drive in conflict when it does exist between the two groups.
Anarchism doesn't just happen or fall into place. How do you believe the US, for example, will arrange itself into horizontal networks of Mutual Aid? By building them up. You seem to have no concept of Anarchist praxis in the modern era, you can't vibe Anarchism into being.
Absolutely, I don't intend to engage in dogmatic sectarianism. Anarchists are my comrades against Capitalism and Imperialism, and if an Anarchist movement was spearheading the revolution, I would fall in line and support that mass movement, because only a mass movement can enact change.
Marxists are communists, for whom the end goal is a stateless, moneyless, classless, society. What do you think stateless means?
And as the process. Which is what separates them from other communists.
Building them up through grassroots movements. They don't happen by taking control of the government and creating "elected committees" who then "plan production", which is what the comic talks about doing (even adding a picture of Lenin), and which the other user - and you by extension - defended.
Good question. Marx specifically referred to the State as the mechanisms within government by which one class asserts its power, not the entire government. Engels elaborates on this, and explains the "whithering away" of the state:
"The proletariat seizes from state power and turns the means of production into state property to begin with. But thereby it abolishes itself as the proletariat, abolishes all class distinctions and class antagonisms, and abolishes also the state as state. Society thus far, operating amid class antagonisms, needed the state, that is, an organization of the particular exploiting class, for the maintenance of its external conditions of production, and, therefore, especially, for the purpose of forcibly keeping the exploited class in the conditions of oppression determined by the given mode of production (slavery, serfdom or bondage, wage-labor). The state was the official representative of society as a whole, its concentration in a visible corporation. But it was this only insofar as it was the state of that class which itself represented, for its own time, society as a whole: in ancient times, the state of slave-owning citizens; in the Middle Ages, of the feudal nobility; in our own time, of the bourgeoisie. When at last it becomes the real representative of the whole of society, it renders itself unnecessary. As soon as there is no longer any social class to be held in subjection, as soon as class rule, and the individual struggle for existence based upon the present anarchy in production, with the collisions and excesses arising from this struggle, are removed, nothing more remains to be held in subjection — nothing necessitating a special coercive force, a state. The first act by which the state really comes forward as the representative of the whole of society — the taking possession of the means of production in the name of society — is also its last independent act as a state. State interference in social relations becomes, in one domain after another, superfluous, and then dies down of itself. The government of persons is replaced by the administration of things, and by the conduct of processes of production. The state is not ’abolished’. It withers away. This gives the measure of the value of the phrase ’a free people’s state’, both as to its justifiable use for a long time from an agitational point of view, and as to its ultimate scientific insufficiency; and also of the so-called anarchists’ demand that the state be abolished overnight."
This is not the Anarchist definition of the State, best described as a monopoly on violence. For Anarchists, elected councils are examples of vertical hierarchy that ought be opposed, as compared to Marxists who see it as a necessary tool for administration. This is the transformation from "the government of people" to the "administration of things," ie government and councils and committees exist to fulfill managerial roles, while Anarchists seek full horizontalism and avoid managerial roles as they believe them to lead to corruption and coercion.
Think Star Trek vs. The Disposessed.
Yes, I am familiar with Means/Ends Unity. I may disagree with the importance of it, but I am not here to promote infighting or sectarianism, I am here to explain Marxism.
Yes, you build up Anarchism, a network of horizontal structures, from the bottom up. You build up Marxism by building dual power via councils, unions, and other democratic structures that can replace the Capialist state. These are separate concepts with similar but distinct goals.
Right, but so it seems we agree? This post's explanation of socialism excludes anarchism, among other forms of socialism, which was my criticism. It only focuses on ML, but titles itself "What the heck is Socialism?"
Perhaps I expressed my self wrong at some point, or misinterpreted something, but that's the point I was trying to make from the start.
Mostly, the end-goal is different, however. Marxists view managerial roles and administration as tools to be used by the Proletariat (even as the Proletariat erases itself). Anarchists disagree, and want horizontalism the entire way through, like a spiderweb.
I agree, it is focused on Marxism. However, if it were to also include Anarchism, it risks being too complicated and lengthy. Additionally, nothing shown is ML specific, MLism gets into the idea of a Vanguard Party, Imperialism as the primary antagonist of Communism, and more, Lenin is just shown as an icon, like Picard is later on.
No worries, I think we are mostly in alignment, except with different ideas of what Marx was describing as Communism vs the Anarchist vision of Communism. If you ever have questions about Marxism, feel free to message me and I will do my best to help answer them.
Glad to see that this got figured out. This is a perennial issue in interpersonal communication, especially text.
Downvotes are likely because of both of these statements. Judge people by their actions, not by where they come from. I've seen Cowbee consistently acting civilly and in good faith here and elsewhere, including interactions that I've had with him. And that's in the face of frequent ad hominems, like the thinly veiled one that you put in parentheses.
I don't see eye-to-eye with him or other M-Ls on a lot of things, especially as I'm roughly an anarcho-syndicalist. But that's really no reason to be rude. Try some positivity and you might build more bridges.
This is a bit puzzling as both seem to be describing forms of anarchism. There are a multitude of different variations. Could you perhaps expound a bit on what form of anarchism you are meaning? Can you share any extant anarchic societies that you are aware of that are members of the global community? From my knowledge and experience, anarchic communities without agreed, intentional direction frequently implode either from external pressures (ex. capitalist or M-L military intervention, state actor infiltration) or personality conflicts.
It was just a tongue in cheek comment based on .ml being known for having a lot of tankies, which are not usually very friendly to anarchists; it was not meant as an insult.
As for anarchist societies that are part of the global community, that's a bit of a Herculean task since no state will ever want to acknowledge a stateless society; but that doesn't mean they didn't exist. For a current one, you can look to the Zapatistas, which I've heard about but admittedly don't know much about; and for other ones, you can look at the anarchists in Catalonia during the civil war, and Korean People's Association in Manchuria around the same time.
Catalonia was stuck between Franco (supplied by Nazis and Mussolini, even officers) and the Republicans/communist party (supplied by the USSR, even officers), and not only did the Nazis and USSR take plenty of other territories, but before the war the Republicans, which were liberal, had won elections; so it can't be claimed it failed because they were anarchists (and non-Soviet socialists and communists), especially with how well they did for a while with so few resources.
Manchuria was also caught between Imperial Japan and communist Korea, and finally fell with the Japanese invasion. Japan not only conquered Korea (which was obviously not all anarchist), but also a lot of other territory and killed a lot of other people, so the failure cannot be attributed to anarchism then either.
Good examples and getting at what my point was. External forces (generally capitalist but also the Red Army did its fair share) continually besiege anarchic societies. Without alliances and reaching societal critical mass, anarchic (and other socialist and/or communist) societies are too vulnerable to interference. Rojava (different SDF) has already seen some of this with efforts to undermine their position having already taken place (ex. Trump's government negotiating some disarmament then abandoning then to Turkish artillery/airstrikes).
Lemmy.ml obviously leans heavily Marxist, but I also pick it because it has a lot of federation with other instances. I have another account on another instance if I want to just chill out with Leftists of all stripes, under the same username, so I can pick what I want at the time.
I do want to point out that it is normally Anarchists picking fights with Marxists, not the other way around. This is down to Anarchism generally being seen favorably by Marxists, just disagreeing on the idea that vertical organization must be opposed and that there must be Means/Ends unity. This is because Marxists are Dialectical Materialists.
Anarchists, however, see any amount of vertical organizing as bad in and of itself, so you see lots of anti-Marxism among Anarchists. While Marxists generally see Anarchists as having a noble goal with less realistic chances at success, Anarchists tend to see Marxists as better than Capitalists, but ultimately still advocating for an "oppressive" system. This is where "tankie" and "red-fash" usually comes in, while the absolute harshest slur for Anarchist is "Anarkiddie," and it's reserved for new leftistd picking Anarchism because they are disgruntled with their current system, but are also in alignment with the western narrative surrounding Marxism and Marxist movements. It's condescending, and I don't do it because it's sectarian nonsense that reduces Leftist cohesion, but it's a stark contrast to the way some Anarchists percieve Marxists.
As long as you enter Marxist spaces without attacking Marxism, you'll likely see no trouble even advocating for Anarchism, but the reverse is rarely true. Some few Anarchists even accuse some Marxists as betraying Marxism, as though Marx were an advocate of Anarchism, which any amount of reading can readily disprove entirely.
I do think reading about a meeting between Lenin and Kropotkin is extremely valuable. In this transcript of the meeting, Kropotkin and Lenin show calm, mutual respect and Kropotkin himself describes his aged heart as warmed by the October Revolution, but tries to advocate for a more cooperative-focused approach, while Lenin takes a more hardline stance in favor of protecting the nascent Socialist society. They leave the meeting in disagreement, but on friendly and respectful terms.
Well, firstly, I think .ml doesn't just lean heavily Marxist, it leans heavily Marxist-Leninist, which is different; secondly, it specifically has a lot of tankies, which is the specific thing I pointed out. Not sure why you would want to equate yourself with that, being that tankies usually refers to people who defend repressive, imperialist, genocidal, actions of madmen. The origin of the word is to describe British communists who defended the use of tanks against protesters in the Hungarian Revolution, and is also colloquial used to describe people who defend Stalin, Mao Zedong, and Kim Jung Un, and their regimes, and more recently to describe people whose views often are based on just being anti-west, to the point of supported the fascist state of Russia, for example. So again, I'm not sure why you're equating yourself with that, but just remember you were the one to put on the shoe, I didn't force it on you.
And I'm sorry, but the idea that it's usually Anarchist picking fights with others is ludicrous, but it actually is the perspective that I expect from tankies, because for a tankie the idea of "leftist unity" is to fall in line with tankie values, and to kill or imprison anyone who does not fall in line. Marxists and MLs in general far outnumber anarchists in online spaces, and one thing you can often see is tankies and MLs in general bursting into anarchist discussions, and being anything less than civil. I have seen anarchists advocating for anarchism in anarchist communities that were in a ML instance or website, get flooded with comments from MLs. You can even be banned in .ml by just being critical of Russia or China; given that anarchists will always be critical of the state, I don't really see how you can in good faith claim that "you’ll likely see no trouble even advocating for Anarchism".
Historically, I find your comment even more revisionist. The USSR not only killed and imprisoned anarchists, but it also refused to support anarchists and other socialists in Catalonia during the revolution, and eventually took control of Catalonia - done by the Spanish Communist Party, which was serving USSR interests and even Russian officers - and began prosecuting them, for no reason other than that they had fought in the POUM against fascists, instead of serving under the communist party. The Korean People's Association in Manchuria also suffered a lot of attacks at the hands of the Korean communists, who nowadays lead North Korea. And of course, there's also the Black Army of Ukraine, that merely wished to see itself independent of the USSR; but of course, for MLs the right of self-determination goes out the window when MLs are the ones trying to subjugate you. All of this, is where the term "red-fash" comes from.
I also don't really remember seeing an anarchist be that critical of Marxists, as I have of MLs, which are different; I'm not sure why you keep trying to merge the two into one, as there are plenty of people who think of themselves as Marxist but not ML, and others who are ML and think Lenin evolved Marxists ideas a lot and that Marxists are essentially living in the past and haven't read enough theory.
In short: MLs, and tankies specifically, have historically heavily persecuted anarchists and wanted them dead, but asking for people to fall in line or be shot is not fucking "unity". Not so different from when Liberal politicians ask for left unity by getting leftists to vote for them while making no compromises, but at least they are less likely to take you to a prison camp or shoot you in the head.
I'm really not interested in having a conversation with someone who is interested in sweeping all of this under the rug and pretend that anarchists just get prickly about MLs and tankies purely based on theory, and who wants to equate Marxists, MLs, and tankies as being all the same. I've even met MLs who distance themselves from tankies, but you claim to be a Marxist and still choose to run defense for them. Well, that's your choice, but don't complain when you get pegged for one, which is definitely how I see you now, and I really don't have in interest with talking with you anymore after this.
The overwhelming majority of Marxists are Marxist-Leninists worldwide. Saying MLs are different is only true by technicality, really. Tankie is a slur for Marxists of all types as well.
These "tankies" largely don't exist, though I'm sure you can find fans of Pol Pot in some decrepit corner.
There's a lot to unpack here. The Hungarian Revolution was a very complicated situation. Among reasonable protesters were intentional agitators, fascists, and Nazi collaborators, who were pressured by the US, to destabilize the USSR and reimplement Capitalisn. It isn't a situation where the USSR can be praised as "good" for violently suppressing the Revolution, but it wasn't a clear cut case.
Secondly, defense of AES countries is Marxist. Trying to dispell myths like "Communism killed 100 million people" and critically analyze what went right and what went wrong is Marxist. Marxists also reject "Great Man Theory," the idea that society is driven by powerful individuals and their whims.
Thirdly, nobody supports Russia. Russia is a bourgeois dictatorship. Recognizing Russia as moving against NATO does not make them pro-Russia. Ask anyone if they want to live in Russia and the answer will be no, because it's a corrupt bourgeois dictatorship that happens to be fighting the largest Imperialist organization in the modern era.
Depends on the spaces. Again, though, as you admit, the Anarchists are the ones who generally refuse to work with the larger leftist movement, which isn't a problem Marxists tend to share.
There was an entire civil war, Anarchists were killing Marxists as well. During the revolution, Anarchists were allies, but eventually disagreed with the Marxists keeping the state, and fought against the Marxists. Leftist infighting is tragic, but to pretend the Marxists were the only belligerants for continuing to pursue Marxism is an extremely one-sided view of tragic events.
MLs outnumber Marxists who reject Lenin by such a huge margin that it's essentially noise. Anarchists lump all Marxists in.
Anarchists have very often gone to war against Marxists for continuing to use a State, and Marxists have fought against Anarchists for fighting against the use of a state. Liberals have additionally absolutely murdered both Anarchists and Marxists alike.
I try to explain Marxist theory as best I can to those who don't understand it.
Then, by definition, you're a Marxist, you're literally summarising Marxist theory. Anarchists don't believe in going through that middle step.
If you want to see how an anarchist revolution works, go look up Catalonia and the CNT-FAI, Anarchist Ukraine or the Zapatistas.
Then it sounds like you're not really an anarchist, much less AnComm 🤷
Care to explain what the difference between a communist and an anarcho-communist is, then? Communists, such as ML, are the ones who believe in slowly eroding the state, anarchists believe in side stepping the state and growing from grassroots movements. That's sort of, ya know, the entire difference?
Anarchist groups exist and have existed through history, and they don't typically believe in "destroy all governance", they believe in, like I said, growing from alternative, independent, grassroots movements.
Sounds like you are just a communist, which is fine, but you're not an anarchist.
ML would be about a vanguard party. That kind of elected council with central planning can happen without it. That vanguard party is where ML goes all wrong and tends to devolve into cult-like behavior. Edit: and not just the big one's in Russia/China/N. Korea. Lots of smaller ML groups devolve into cult-like behavior, too.
I do agree, though, that the second panel is still too specific. There are many ways to organize the workers, and that second panel is far too narrow.
It is very clear that it's about Socialism, so leaving AnComms out is fair.
AnComms are socialists, though. As are communists, and all anarchists who are not AnCaps, but those aren't even really anarchists.
Socialism is just about workers controlling the means of production; how you get there, the styles and forms of leadership, and all other things, are where all subgroups differ. The same way that in capitalism you can have Soc-Dems, Liberals, Libertarian Capitalists, Fascists, etc.
AnComms are under the socialist umbrella, but the comic isn't delving into every single thing that's under that umbrella, because it's not 600 pages long.
Right, instead is it's delving specifically into ML and making it sound like that is specifically what socialism is; it's not. And it sounds like you agree, so... I really don't get what your point is. Sounds like you're arguing for the sake of arguing.
Vanguard politics consistently lead to a new different hierarchy that is just as bad as the current hierarchy is my problem. Leninism just sucks. The peers who said he sucked were right. Leninism leads to Stalinism, Maoism, Pol Pot, etc. When people try to scare the shit out of us by acting like socialism is more dangerous than capitalism we have Lenin to blame for thinking anyone could have the strength to wield power without being depraved by it.
Hierarchical societies just don't work. And I won't apologize for saying Bolshevism sucks and isn't even really communism, its just a more weirdly shaped version of colonialism
This is the conclusion I've come to since reading the State and Revolution. The people who are capable of overthrowing the current system aren't likely to be the same people capable of keeping true to an approach that's legitimately socialist. There are problems with reformism as well, as it can result in an endless series of small concessions to distract from an equally endless series of measured power grabs.
If I take what I read of Marx and Engels as likely to be accurately predictive, my conclusion has to be that the circumstances they're discussing haven't occurred yet. Basically, Lenin jumped the gun with his support of imposing a revolution and a dictatorship of the proletariat. The power structure it creates is too centralized to achieve its goals.
This would suggest to me that if Marx and Engels are correct, a spontaneous and universal proletariat uprising is probably still down the road somewhere. Basically, we see hints at this state reflected in the microcosm of revolution, but have yet to see the circumstances that cause an actual change of prioritization and autonomy rather than simply a changing of the guard.