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Anyone who hates the concept of taxes should be barred from voting. Clearly, you're too stupid to be allowed to participate.
I don't hate the concept of taxes. I hate the concept of my taxes not actually going back into the community I live in and instead being used to line pockets and blow up middle eastern people.
That's fair, as long as you realize that some of it DOES actually go back to your community.
Then let's only pay the portion that does go to the community or necessary public services
Well you can't just support your community. There's a whole nation of communities. And you'll need some sort of military to prevent others from coming and exploiting you.
I’ll take that deal, but only if I’m also relieved from paying taxes.
You can be relieved of taxes as long as you're barred from using anything paid for with taxes. No FDA regulations for you!
[starts manufacturing affordable insulin]
[starts to stretch insulin with paint thinner]
every day it seems like people forget what things like the FDA are for, but hey, the snake oil salesmen love this state of affairs
If I need testing for someone else's insulin, I can get that for cheaper than the regulatory capture insulin. They don't work for us.
ah yes, use the totally legit bio-med test service down the road, due to the FTC not being a thing they can totally and without any repercussions just lie to you because they have a deal with the person selling you the insulin.
Then again, you have been hoodwinked into some "regulatory capture" bullshit, in reality, insulin is so expensive in the USA because no one has the capital wants to sell it cheap, it's a risk for minimal rewards, the demand is literally your life, so the cost can be as high as anyone wants it.
as for the whole "but the free market" and "supply/demand", do you think the people setting these prices don't know what the prisoner's dilemma is?
There is just so much going on here.
Are we discussing a situation in which only the FDA is gone, or complete anarchy?
Do you believe that regulatory capture is bullshit?
People knowing about a prisoner's dilemma doesn't make it go away.
Are we discussing a situation in which only the FDA is gone, or complete anarchy?
the premise was no government services paid for by taxes, and without taxes there are no government anything.
Do you believe that regulatory capture is bullshit?
regulatory capture is commonly trodden out by people as an example of big government bad, when it doesn't happen as often as these people like to pretend it does (take, for example, your misconception that the FDA is the cause of high insulin prices), not the fact that it is just a failure to deal with corruption.
People knowing about a prisoner’s dilemma doesn’t make it go away.
that's the fun part tho, both parties knowing about the prisoner's dilemma DOES make it go away, as the most successful models, over a longer set of games, tend to be Tit-for-Tat models
So then there's no patents either, right? Literally anyone can start manufacturing their own insulin or biosimilars.
There are already drug testing services for darknet markets. They don't know who sent you the drugs in the first place.
The tit for tat with forgiveness models you're thinking of are for two parties, not dozens or more.
tit-for-tat works in a larger setting as well, in fact it works better because you can ostracize and punish.
you know, like WHAT IS LITERALLY HAPPENING AS WE SPEAK!? do you think greed-flation just happened out of nowhere?
but no, like every libertarian, you propose the destruction of regulation because you promise yourself that somehow people will be better off if they need to waste their lives on crap. "you didn't put weeks of research into the three bio-med testing labs to ensure they wouldn't lie about the insulin, I guess you should die now, lol", and you know how I can tell you're an American? BECAUSE LITERALLY NO NE ELSE HAS THIS ISSUE. yes, this issue is entirely an American thing because you're the main drivers of the deregulation and reactionary enforcement that has lead to insulin costing you $500 for a 2-week supply, and your reaction is to make the US into more of a banana republic by destroying the goverment even more.
tit-for-tat works in a larger setting as well, in fact it works better because you can ostracize and punish.
I didn't know that! Do you have a source?
These appear to be regarding typical 2 player prisoner's dilemmas. What I'm curious about is if there's an academic literature about this for larger groups, where they ostracize and punish.
Because if it works for them, then it can work for us... We could build unions where we signal to each other the same way, without need for central leadership.
Hey sorry to keep bugging you but where did you first hear the "greedflation" concept? If you've got a source for either (since it's pretty much the same thing) I am legit interested.
What he could’ve made if there were no taxes? I doubt he’d be making as much if there were no government.
Should be more mad of what isn't being done with all the taxes being taken out.
He'd be really upset if he knew what is being done with his taxes.
Argentina gutted its tax system and now certain people are making a lot more money. Its just that the state currency is increasingly worthless, as the biggest consumer of notes no longer wants them.
We need to find an argument, which is convincing to billionaires, that the world will be better for them if they and all other billionaires pay their full share of taxes.
Government can be a win for the individual, if all the other individuals are also making the same sacrifice.
So like if Joe gets taxed some of his money and he’s the only one, then Joe loses because Joe’s money can’t serve him any better being spent by someone else.
But if Joe gets taxed some of his money and so does everyone else who Joe lives with, then Joe can win by this because the effect of the commonwealth generated can benefit him more than the money would have in his own account.
Like, I’m happy to pay taxes in order to live in a society of laws and security and free open markets where I can trade with people to get things I can’t provide myself.
By giving up that 10% of my money, I’m gaining all this other wealth in the form of a stable society.
So we need to articulate how the global benefits of those billionaires’ tax money being pooled and spent on commonwealth, is better even for the billionaires than if they’d each individually kept that money.
Am I being clear here? I feel like I’m not.
Like if we went after Elon Musk and only Elon Musk for back taxes, then Elon Musk loses.
But if we go after all the billionaires for their back taxes, then the billionaires can win too, by benefitting from the overall societal improvements.
And so long as the other billionaires are also taking financial hits, any given billionaire isn’t slipping in their billionaire-vs-billionaire game of status. They’re all losing money equally across the board.
The reason to go looking for an argument that takes the billionaires’ benefits into account, is that billionaires are the only ones who can make this tax thing happen. Their influence is too great to do it against their will.
So we need to articulate how the global benefits of those billionaires’ tax money being pooled and spent on commonwealth, is better even for the billionaires than if they’d each individually kept that money.
If they pay their taxes we don't feed them to pigs. How's that for a benefit?
That's plan B, we can't lead with that. But believe me, it is on the table.
Okay, here's my suggestion for plan A: We feed them to pigs and take it all. Regardless of the tax situation.
I think it is a net positive like you say, but also some people really think they know better, and also don't like their impact of politics being reduced to that of their fellows.
Can you imagine what it's like to actually be able to influence policy workout having to vote, or even to take part in collective action with other people?
It can't be good for the soul, but it's got to be habit forming.
That’s the thing man. There are enough billionaires that they have a society. Being a billionaire no longer means unilaterally changing the world, because other billionaires won’t cooperate if you’re going against their wishes.
So billionaires are no longer “above” society. They just live in a new stratum of society, but they still have to deal with the existence of their peers.
I can't remember who suggested it, but they framed the question differently around taxing billionaires.
Instead of making it a negative thing, they said it should be framed as a great honour to pay these "special" taxes. The billionaire tax should be kept separately from all other taxes, it should be pooled into a limited fund that they own, and should be distributed to areas where they want it to make a real impact. They should then be given additional benefits in society based on the impact generated by their fund. It notes that capitalism isn't necessarily about accumulation of wealth, but profit, and that wealth should be taxed.
For example, if Elon Musk were taxed 50% as a wealth tax, he is personally invited to the White House to discuss his plans with the tax authorities and the president. He gets to attend specific meetings to see where his money has gone (let's say to hospitals), and gets public praise for pumping several billion into public healthcare initiatives. Wealth is reframed into an opportunity to help society, whereas capitalism pushes profit.
While I don't really like the idea of billionaires choosing where taxes go, if improvements are measured on societal impact it's still better than before where they just hoard wealth.
I think that billionaires gain their wealth by gaming the system, and it seems foolish to expect them to not continue to game any new system that they're a part of. Especially given the degree of control you're suggesting.
Idk, maybe it could work. Seems like there's a lot that hinges on billionaires doing the right thing, and I'm skeptical that they would.
In many ways, it is an obscene amount of control, and I don't disagree that this degree of wealth isn't ethical - even examples like Taylor Swift aren't from "hard work", but rather backroom deals, undercutting other artists, etc.
IMO, the best alternative is going entirely the other way. Tell all billionaires in the US that they are subject to a wealth tax, and attempts to fight it will result in freezing assets, expulsion from the country, executive removal, etc. Drive all billionaires out of the country, and let them set up shop elsewhere (they won't).
It's a punishment, though. Perhaps they should be punished, but IMO an easier approach is to say "well done" and to tell them that as long as this money goes somewhere for societal gain it doesn't really matter if they decide to pump tens of billions into making public roads the best roads in the country, it's better than them just having that money in a fund somewhere.
Where this will likely get dicey is in ensuring that this money stays in home accounts, and in defining what is taxable wealth, and fighting avoidance. That's where the system will be gamed, but ultimately it's different to avoid tax that goes somewhere to avoiding your money being spent by you for public good.
Instead of the $1 menu (wait does that still exist?) they get to choose from the billionaire menu except it's required...as long as they can't lobby for the billionaire menu items which is a dream too. It would have to be programs that actually show they help people in easing financial needs of course.
Thing is, this already happens, it's just currently more in the billionaire's favor because instead of tax it's a "donation". You're proposing the same system that already exists with lobbyists and Super PACs, just more enforced. No one is going to bite that bait when they can just pay Scheister and Swindel, Attorneys at Law, to cut a private deal with the CEOs and senators of their choice, be completely unbeholden to public opinion about it, and not be required to do it again next tax season if it's not profitable to do so.
Besides, I've had quite enough of rich assholes deciding that this year they're going to donate $80m to exterminate the gays / to shut down solar startups / to arm all the cops with rocket launchers. In every situation, given the choice, they will always invest their money into whatever is most immediately profitable to them, morals or longevity be damned. This would cause our already easily-purchased politicians to be even more easily purchased and with semi public approval, as Elongated Muskrat now has a legal right to billionaire hero-worship? No thanks.
The special billionaire tax isn't an awful idea. The perks attached to it are most definitely an awful, no good, very bad idea. If something like this did get implemented it would be an absolute requirement that the investor have no say in where these taxes are spent. They may advise in certain directions, but final say should be up to a jury of some sort.
This seems like royalty with extra steps
Hmmm, this might be what I need to remember which is net and which is gross!
Net is what you catch in the net, and the rest falls away.