I recommend this video to look more into OSR philosophy regarding the rules: https://www.youtube.com/live/bCxZ3TivVUM?si=aZ-y2U_AVjn9a6Ua
Meh, don't play it, then. Why turn everything into a competiton?
this post was submitted on 04 Sep 2023
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5e is pretty light though, and in most cases too light so the DM has no idea what to do and has to resort to "Rulings".
PF2e on the otherhand is crunchy AF and its awesome like that. It doesn´t have extra rules for everything, its all based on the same framework, which is pretty awesome.
PF2 is certainly easier to run. But tell me when it becomes a RPG, it's basically a video game system ported to tabletop. Everything is about the builds, not the characters.
What would it take to make it a RPG? Some characters are flawed in certain things while excel at others. But what you want your character to be, its in your hands due to how you build your character. That´s part of your character, same goes to the backstory you may have developed and inform your build.
Well they could stop gamifying RP and exploration so players actually get into character instead of just rolling dice. But that's a pretty fundamental shift, so they won't do it.
But how does roling dice, when the outcome of a situation is uncertain, inhibit you from roleplaying your character?
It doesn't. It just conditions players towards not doing it by replacing interacting with the world with interacting with rules and dice. Which doesn't stop experienced players, but misleads new players in a video game mindset.
Okay, but what can a solid and crunchy RPG System do for new players that expect Skyrim on a table? And on the other hand, what can those player get out of a rules light game? They would be entirely lost. Which then would result in just make.believe, which doesn´t need rules to begin with.
Let me get this straight: you don't like crunchy rule sets, you don't like character builds and progression and you don't like rolling dice? Sounds to me like you don't like TTRPGs.
I mean you can just read a story to your players or skip the whole tabletop part altogether and do an improv theatre session.
Where did I say I don't like dice or crunch? I literally run Hackmaster. You don't even know Hackmaster do you? Sure I don't like bloated player options that cause power creep and slow the game down. But that doesn't mean I do sloppy improv or storytell railroads like Critical Role or Dimension 20.
I've only been running rpgs 20 years. Has it occurred to you that you don't like rpgs if you just play 5e or PF2. Are you even a gamemaster?
Maybe it's just my imagination, but didn't you comment multiple times that you want your players rather roleplay than rolling dice, play their characters and not the character builds they created and that systems like PF2e are too videogamey?
But to quench your thirst about my experiences: I am playing and DMing TTRPGs for about 10 years now. My groups are mostly running PF1e, Call of Cthulhu and Numenera, but for one shots we also like to try smaller systems like Dungeon Crawl Classics, Paranoia or Savage Worlds. I play with and DM for veterans and new players alike. I would say that I know one or two things about this matter, but who knows.
No matter what system we run, we never really have a problem with the rules and there is always room for fun and engaging RP. To me the overall critique in this thread sounds like a homemade problem on the DM side of things. You don't have to know and use all the rules a system is offering you (looking at you, Pathfinder), but it's really nice to know that there are rules for almost anything. And if you get the feeling that you have to fill the gaps with homebrew rules too often, then maybe the system isn't the right one for what you are going for in your campaign or maybe you have to adjust your style of DMing.
This year for example I started a new PF1e campaign with people that never played a TTRPG before and they love it. I was afraid that this system could be too much for inexperienced players but they already get creative with the rules in combat and they engage in serious RP. They reached level 6 and can't wait to develop the stories of their characters further.
But calling a watered down and noob friendly system like D&D5e being too complicated and rule heavy? Or calling a system like Pathfinder not a true RPG? Idk man. Maybe TTRPGs aren't your thing if you really think that or maybe your approach at DMing is fundamentally flawed.
5e has both too many rules and not enough rules.
It has very specific rules in some places. Item interactions, many spell specifics, grapple, holding your breath, etc.
It has very lackluster rules in other places. Social conflict, item and spell crafting, metagame stuff like making your own class or species.
I think a lot of people playing DND would be happier playing a different system. Just not the same system for everyone.
Exactly. It's sort of an uncomfortable middle ground, but also just kind of messy.
And I'm tired, as someone who DMed it a bunch, hearing people act like broken or missing rules aren't a problem, or somehow even a good thing, because the DM can just make something up. Yeah, not shit. I can do that in literally any game I run. It's just unpleasant to do in 5e, yet I have to do it all the damn time to keep the game running smoothly. I'd rather have a game that either supports me as a GM, or is easier to improvise.
I think it was a different thread where I posted about how a guy in my dnd group straight face told us something like "the beauty of DND is we can just try out different rules. If we want to do a chase scene we can try it one way, and if it doesn't work or we don't like it we can try something else".
I'm just like that's not a unique property of DND. That's just how playing make believe works. And I'd rather have a game that runs okay out of the box rather than keep playtesting as a DM, or deal with unchecked dm whims as a player.
Depends on the game the group likes. More narrative driven game it can conflict and have issues
However, there is something nice about knowing a balanced way to do x or y across the board and at different tables.
A good gm should be able to make a note of something or make a quick call especially in pf2e case were generic difficulty dc per level is given
However, there is something nice about knowing a balanced way to do x or y across the board and at different tables.
I don't agree with this argument. Balancing is the job of the GM. Unless the GM acts as a glorified screenreader who only reads a pre-made adventure to the players with no influence what happens. But if the GM decides what monsters you run into, the GM has more influence over the balancing than the game framework. So why not lean into it fully and make the GM responsible for the whole balancing?
I mean, pen&paper RPGs aren't a players vs GM game, but instead the GM plays together with the players to create an interesting experience where everyone has fun. No need for the framework to do balancing, because a good GM will do that.
Balancing is the job of the GM.
And some systems make that job easier for the GM than other systems. Winning all the time without challenge is boring. Getting TPKd every other session does not feel good. A good GM should hit somewhere in-between. So you either have a system that helps you do that or you really need to have a lot of experience.