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Why were they holding military hostages in a refugee camp?
Israel detains many Palestinians including hundreds of minors without charge, on bases right in the middle of civilian towns. Heck, IDF headquarters is right in the middle of a civilian neighborhood in Tel Aviv. Does that mean Tel Aviv is a legitimate military target?
To maximize civilian casualties, obviously. Hamas profits off the deaths of Palestinian civilians, so why wouldn't they want civilians to die?
They're now trying to come up with a justification to attack the pier Biden installed to prevent aid from getting in. So Palestinians will starve. Then people will be outraged and donate more money to Hamas. There's no downside for Hamas psychopaths.
Yep, and the agencies disseminating these things come from a typical cast of characters (hello Turkey and Iran!). It's great that more aid is getting to Palestinians.
https://www.tasnimnews.com/en/news/2024/06/09/3100535/us-built-pier-used-in-israel-s-brutal-nuseirat-camp-attack-in-gaza-report
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-support-israeli-forces-rescue-hostages-gaza/
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/tasnim-news-agency/
Edit: people down vote exposing Turkish state media :)
Where would you prefer they hold them? I mean it's not like Israel has left them any other choice.
*** And I'm not saying I agree with taking/holding hostages. I'm simply responding to the question you asked.
Where else would it be safe to hold the hostages? The rest of the area is getting bombed to oblivion. Most of the hostages are probably under rubble.
I hear there's this intricate network of tunnels they hide in.
I doubt the hostages would survive a sponge bomb, you know, the kind the IDF uses to clear tunnels (they built).
So then Hamas has evacuated these tunnels because they don't work?
What if I showed you how the IDF would destroy parts of Gaza even if Hamas wasn't present: https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/no-evidence-of-hamas-tunnels-under-cemetery-destroyed-by-israeli-military-investigation/3123427
So you're saying it might be a good idea to make known certain safe zones for hostages and not turn those into battle grounds? Who is that incumbent on?
Also, aa is Turkish state media and not trustworthy.
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/anadolu-agency/
The particular article I linked is relaying CNN's own reporting 🤷: https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/29/world/israel-cemetery-bani-suheila-intl/index.html
Right, I didn't deny that happened. I think there's more to deciding linking to Turkish state media than CNN, like you're trying to legitimize a propaganda outlet (hence I said also). So you're not against holding hostages in combat free zones? Good! Who is that incumbent upon? Because I know who has direct control of those hostages.
None of that matters since Israel bombs "combat free zones".
Edit: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c299pl8j8w7o.amp
Can you cite where in that article your claim is substantiated?
Edit: Again, not saying it hasn't happened, but that article doesn't say that. And I think it does matter unless you can prove that Israel is purposefully targeting non combat zones with no inclination that Hamas is hiding there. Israel itself has attacked areas deemed non combat zones, mistakes I don't excuse, but this is by Hamas' design.
https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf
So then would you hold Israel to the same standard of using human shields that you do Hamas?
If so would you claim the Hamas attacks on the 7th were justified because they attacked settler towns like Be'eri, whose ideological purpose of existing this close to Gaza was specifically to create a civilian border (literal large scale human shield)?
Using civilians to protect any military objective (including the land you've settled by force) is appalling - but let's not pretend only one side is doing it.
If you really care about peace - petition your leaders for a one state solution where both Israelis and Palestinians (no matter their religion) are allowed to coexist and are equal in the eyes of the law and the people.
Yes, and this is all clear whataboutism. And lazy at that. So that means we both think Hamas should stop using civilians as human shields right? Sweet, tell me when they stop. And I'm gonna just ignore your attempt to equate Hamas charter with 11 points, that's just silly on its face :)
You accuse me of whataboutism then you just use it yourself.
Yes, I don't think Hamas should be using human shields but I also don't think Israel should be settling land even before the partitioning of Palestine. (I mean the idea of a foreign state partitioning land they don't inhabit is insane, but let's ignore that for the sake of argument)
How do you not see using civilian encampments as a makeshift human wall just as immoral?
And we can play the whole who started it first game as much as we want but it doesn't negate the fact that even after unfavorable borders for Palestine were established - settlers continued to take over land with the support of the IDF - where is the defense in burning homes and expelling Palestinians from land not even within the borders of Israel?? (oh but it was contested territory you see so that gives us the right to massacre people, yes I am very intelligent...)
Saying Hamas is the reason the IDF is killing civilians completely misses the history of the struggle - what's next the Nakba was also Hamas' fault then?
Sounds like the history is that Hamas held hostages in a refugee camp and that's dangerous for them. No other history involving anyone else legitimizes Hamas doing this.
And to address your accusation of whataboutism, I'll refer you to my original comment at the top of the chain and ask you what I started to discuss and who changed the topic. "So you would hold Israel to the same standards?" Is textbook whataboutism.
Edit: and I think using civilians as shields is worse. Much worse. End of debate.
I mean you came in swinging with the whole "but why is Hamas holding hostages in a refugee camp" line which is actual whataboutism when the thread is about the IDF killing over 200 people.
Why not ask why the IDF doesn't have procedures in place to prevent civilian casualties? Why not ask why is it impossible to send ground troops instead of carpet bombing Gaza? Why not ask why does Hamas exist in the first place? Is there a single thing you'll admit the IDF/Israel has done wrong that isn't somehow the fault of Hamas?
Your lack of humanity was already showing, but I didn't think you'd be so unable to retort that you'd just forfeit the debate..
No, I started a topic and you changed it. The article itself says there were hostages held in refugee camps. "Coming in swinging" is just... indicative. I'm ending this with you.
And there is NOTHING that excuses using civilians as shields. Stop trying to justify it.
I mean you could have asked why Israel attacks refugee camps in the first place (even before Hamas)?
Or do you think that atrocities like "women and children were stripped, lined up, photographed and then slaughtered by automatic fire" doesn't breed resentment? (not that Hamas didn't do the same on 7.11 but let's not pretend Israel isn't at least as complicit as Hamas in the overall conflict)
I'll admit using civilians as shields is indeed dreadful - but my main point is acknowledging that violence only breeds more violence and that the first step to preventing more deaths is dismantling the current terror state form of Israel, not killing more and more civilians as some form of extirpation..
I'll leave you with this - if there's no oppressor to rally against, what would give Hamas power?
All I see is you trying to garner understanding towards Hamas using civilians as shields. No history leads to this, Hamas is not forced to do this.
Because Hamas is just a shitty as Israel. The only difference seems to be that Israel is far, far more effective.
And that Hamas keeps military hostages in civilian refugee campus.
Yes pretty shitty isn’t it.
Do you think it’s an acceptable response to murder 274 other innocent people to save those 4? Are Israeli lives worth more than Palestinian lives to you?
Of those 274, I wonder how many of those will now want to join Hamas for vengeance against the people that killed their families.
I think it's appalling that the de facto governing body in that area would not find a way to separate their civilian population from known military objectives, instead of distributing them throughout a refugee camp and hiding there themselves (of those 274, there were combatants). I think Palestinians deserve better.
Yes me too.
Again, I don’t believe that justifies the actions of the IDF? What about you?
Perhaps you could stop avoiding the question and either call out Israel as well, or say no I think what Israel did by mudering 274 innocent people including 60+ children is acceptable to you.
We just want some clarity in your stance here. As the consensus here is most people are willing to call out both sides, whereas you seem to only want to focus on one side. Some might say you’re being biased.
Some might say you're whatabouting my initial question. Something shitty Hamas performs does not have to be met with something shitty Israel does. This is the inversion of the "but do you condemn Hamas" schtick.
As I pointed out, those 274 people involved combatants. If there weren't combatants or if they were held in a different location than a refugee camp, I would think this operation would have gone very differently.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-news-06-09-2024-61eb1be9a9d0cf2dbf250cd4a8ed4dbf
To address your whataboutism, I think netanyahu has a tolerance for collateral damage that most of the world has a problem with, and we will see what the repercussions are. If I were a family member who's loved one was taken, I would think this was a success while mourning the great cost this is coming at. I think it's grotesque to try to simply weigh lives versus lives in a hostage rescue mission in which one side insists on involving their own civilians in the cross fire.
My thoughts on whether this was worth it really are insignificant, I'd defer to the hostages' families and the Palestinians. If I were putting myself in the hostage families shoes, I'd give anything to have them back. If I were a Palestinian, I'd wonder why both sides are willing to treat us so poorly and resent my aggressors (both sides). This isn't a black and white issue no matter how much you want to reduce it to such.
And you're not "both siding" anything, you're riding the previous comment trying to equate the two by saying Hamas is just as shitty as Israel somehow. And I'm saying that only one side is hiding military objectives and themselves in civilian areas here, which is greatly exacerbating the outcomes.
I’m sorry that you’re making it impossible to have a discussion with.
I have numerous times agreed with your assessment of Hamas and only asked you to either agree that the IDF should be held to a similar standard and you just dance around the topic.
Reporting the Israeli military or governments responses are meaningless to any of us. We all know they lie, they have been caught lying. The same can be said for Hamas statements.
I’ll leave it with the ICC and the ICJ, as again your counter points have been to comment on the innocent Israelis whilst disregarding the innocent Palestinians, which is either due to you purposely being obtuse, or at worst you really don’t care about any innocent Palestinian and you have as much a blood lust as Netanyahu.
Either way I will end the _conversation_here and hope that in the future when we look back on this you will know that you were actively supporting monsters, killing innocent people to aid in killing other monsters.