this post was submitted on 28 Jul 2024
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Human caused environmental devastation didn't start in the 1600s, capitalism did. I don't think humans are a virus, but I don't think that abolishing capitalism is the only critical step in preventing environmental catastrophe.
Given that the environmental depredation of this planet is driven by
can people explain why they believe that without capitalism everyone would be a vegan who doesn’t take vacations, use air conditioning, fly on airplanes, or drive a car? I also assume they’re wearing hemp and have no interest in fashion.
Keep in mind there are 8 billion people on this planet, so presumably they wouldn’t be having children either.
EDIT: the reply below completely ignores my question. Very few people seem to actually give a shit about the environment. It’s all just ideological posturing. And that is why we are fucked.
capitalist industry and commerce have been the driving force of the mass extinction of the last 500 years[0][1][2]. climate change didn't begin until the late 1800s with the rise of tycoons, and accelerated with mass production in the mid-1900s.
for a current example: datacentres are wasting entire regional electricity and water supplies on investment grifter bullshit. because it makes money. it doesn't even turn a real profit, and it's not everyday people paying for it.
could be, not necessarily would. because a humanistic, socialised means of production would: allow for truly 'democratic' control over what is produced; remove nested interests and subsidies to overgrown polluting industries[3]; and make alternatives viable without the need to bend or break to top-down market pressures and monetary policy dictated by dragons.
capitalism has existed for less than 300 years. consumerism has existed for less than 100 years. when you have an economic system which emphasises the independent individual — simultaneously a motivator and a mere cog in the machine — and posits that the mere potential to own things is the source of value: buying wasteful, exotic, unnecessary shit is a way to define yourself and your status. it's called conspicuous consumption, and it happens from the micro to the macro in the lower and the upper classes, and there's top-down pressure to do so to keep currency current.
i recommend the documentary The Century of the Self for an overview of the commodification of identity and culture.
we are already producing enough food to sufficiently feed 1.5x the world population[4], and could continue to do so even within planetary boundaries[5] with changes to economic policy and the adoption of less profitable methods of agriculture.
i didn't cover everything here, because i recommend:
We don’t produce 1.5 times the food we need, as you said. We produce 100 times the food we need. Know why? To feed the billions of sentient animals that are tortured to death each year in factory abattoirs. Do you have any idea how sustainable that is? It’s not. So…
You’ve taken a roundabout way to tell me that mass adoption of veganism (literally the only way to save the environment) unfortunately has nothing to do with our economic system.
no, we don't.
no, i didn't.
no, it isn't.
no, it isn't.
says the person who cannot read, ignores sources, puts words in other people's mouths, and makes simplistic, baseless, harmful assertions.
i — a vegan — and the two sources i provided advocate for sustainable plant-based diets, and point to the systemic economic obstacles: agribusiness lobbying; little to no farmer control; subsidised incentives and poor farmers' dependence on these subsidies; and severe economic and political inequality.
to quote another vegan in this thread who you've insulted:
you're arguing for a vote-with-your-wallet approach, which ignores conspicuous consumption, ignores the plight of the lower classes, and greatly favours the wealthy elite and the state (who can always outbid you). this is not to say we shoudn't change (our) individual behaviour, but that it cannot be the sole solution, and that there are systemic changes which would boost mass adoption of sustainable choices.
i once again point you to my book suggestion, the concept of superstructures, and to the responses to your last malthusian tangents.
if you have anything else to say: tell it to a mirror.
You quoted someone else and then accused me of arguing for something I’m absolutely not. Did you reply to the wrong person? For the benefit of anyone who stumbles over this bizarre exchange, my question is super simple:
How will you convince 8 billion people to dramatically lower their standard of living?
Currently we are consuming about 2 earths worth of resources (if everyone lived like Americans it would be 20 earths). Obviously capitalism makes this worse, but the question remains. What then?
Once we abolish capitalism, this will raise standards of living. More people will want cars and air-conditioning and so on. More people will want to eat meat. So what’s the plan?
You’re technically correct. It’s closer to 100, but my point stands.